Manny ranked the no. 8 3B “right now” by MLB Network; Beckham ranked no. 10 SS

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

5 hours ago, ScGO's said:

What if Manny is overrated? What are his weaknesses? 

Not great pitch selection.

Already had a major surgery that could catch up with him.

Ego?

Only 2 seasons over .800 ops, never over .900

Is he really worth 300 mil

Manny's tendency to chase bad pitches and swinging for the long ball is putting a ceiling on his offensive value.  I also think these bad habits have developed as result of playing on a team full of free swingers.  

[Il BuonO]

9 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

If Manny stays at third, I think his career will look a lot  like Adrian Beltre’s. 

Beltre has more than a couple below average-mediocre campaigns with the Dodgers along with a couple average seasons with the Mariners.

Machado has only one season you could compare that with in 2014 and he only played in 82 games because of injury.

 

[tntoriole]

5 minutes ago, birdwatcher55 said:

This is beyond stupid. It's fning ludicrous LOL

Yes, ranking Manny 8th is just that.  I agree.  

[Aristotelian]

I am not sold on his bat. I think it remains to be proven whether 2016 is the aberration and 2017 the norm or vice versa. His minor league numbers would seem to indicate that he is more of an average hitter. Also really irritated by bad habit of turning doubles into singles and making bizarre outs at third base with two out etc. He is quite possibly the best defensive player I have ever seen play the game but I don't think he is a truly complete player on the level of Trout etc, and there are some really good 3Bs in the game right now. Top 10 sounds about right although if someone wanted to argue he is #1 I wouldn't disagree with that either.

[tntoriole]

2 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Beltre has more than a couple below average-mediocre campaigns with the Dodgers along with a couple average seasons with the Mariners.

Machado has only one season you could compare that with in 2014 and he only played in 82 games because of injury.

 

Beltre is averaging about 5.5 WAR per season for over 18 seasons.  Manny is averaging about 5.6 WAR for  5 seasons (combining the 2 seasons he played 51 and 82 games).    We shall see where Manny is a decade from now.  

[tntoriole]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I am not sold on his bat. I think it remains to be proven whether 2016 is the aberration and 2017 the norm or vice versa. His minor league numbers would seem to indicate that he is more of an average hitter. Also really irritated by bad habit of turning doubles into singles and making bizarre outs at third base with two out etc. He is quite possibly the best defensive player I have ever seen play the game but I don't think he is a truly complete player on the level of Trout etc, and there are some really good 3Bs in the game right now. Top 10 sounds about right although if someone wanted to argue he is #1 I wouldn't disagree with that either.

The Shredder seems to be more of a ranking solely and completely based on the previous year's performances and gives no weight at all to any prior history or future expectations.  

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

Beltre is averaging about 5.5 WAR per season for over 18 seasons.  Manny is averaging about 5.6 WAR for  5 seasons (combining the 2 seasons he played 51 and 82 games).    We shall see where Manny is a decade from now.  

Eh, Beltre....4.7 rWAR and 4.2 fWAR but who’s counting?

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, Il BuonO said:

Eh, Beltre....4.7 rWAR and 4.2 fWAR but who’s counting?

Particularly since his career DRAA among third basemen is second only to Brooks all time and he has had an OPS+ of 133 for the seasons since 2010. Manny would do well if he had a Beltre career. 

[Beef Supreme]

8 hours ago, Luke-OH said:

It was a good trade for the Orioles even if Beckham was only the player he showed in Tampa, you just don't get controllable regulars (or at least a regular for a bad team) for a short season pitcher without much pedigree 1 for 1. It just doesn't happen.

For all the emphasis some put on acquiring "good teammates", I kind of like the idea of acquiring guys who are cheaply available due to personality clashes/issues.  Talent is talent, and I don't believe there are many "bad guys", just bad situations.  A fresh start can be a magical thing.

Beckham was a "good teammate" according to many Rays, including Evan Longoria. Some in Tampa's management may have had a problem with him but it seems his teammates loved him.

Quote

"I assume he's going to be playing shortstop every day with a great infield [at Baltimore]," pitcher Chris Archer said. "So I'm happy for him personally, but I think it strips a little bit away from our team. He's helped us thrive and click to this point of the season."

 

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

Particularly since his career DRAA among third basemen is second only to Brooks all time and he has had an OPS+ of 133 for the seasons since 2010. Manny would do well if he had a Beltre career. 

His career DRAA is second only to Brooks? Well, it should be considering he’s played 14 more seasons than Manny. But yes I’d be happy with Beltre’s career arc.

Well, I would have been happy. Now, Manny could fall off a cliff statistically and I wouldn’t care as long as it’s on another team.

[tntoriole]

24 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

His career DRAA is second only to Brooks? Well, it should be considering he’s played 14 more seasons than Manny. But yes I’d be happy with Beltre’s career arc.

Well, I would have been happy. Now, Manny could fall off a cliff statistically and I wouldn’t care as long as it’s on another team.

Beltre has better DRAA than any third baseman since 1901except for Brooks.  Better than Schmidt, Santos, etc. 

Interesting that the alltime DRAA rankings for ALL positions include 3 Orioles in top 4.  Ozzie Smith is first, then comes Brooks, Mark Belanger and Cal...and then number 5 is Luis Aparicio.   Amazing defenders we have been fortunate to see here. 

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

I am not sold on his bat. I think it remains to be proven whether 2016 is the aberration and 2017 the norm or vice versa. His minor league numbers would seem to indicate that he is more of an average hitter. Also really irritated by bad habit of turning doubles into singles and making bizarre outs at third base with two out etc. He is quite possibly the best defensive player I have ever seen play the game but I don't think he is a truly complete player on the level of Trout etc, and there are some really good 3Bs in the game right now. Top 10 sounds about right although if someone wanted to argue he is #1 I wouldn't disagree with that either.

His minor league numbers?    You mean when he was playing AA ball at 19?    

[webbrick2010]

I'm shocked

Manny Machado a "generational" talent is only the 8th best player at his position?

LOL, I've been saying for a year that he is overrated and the only way he sniffs a 300  million dollar deal is if he proves to be a legitimate SS

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

His minor league numbers?    You mean when he was playing AA ball at 19?    

Trout and Harper's minor league numbers destroy Manny's at the same age/level. And they have been better hitters in MLB.

[thatbearflies]

One key area of focus of the discussion (I just watched it) was definitely that there is an uncertainty about Manny Machado. They emphasized how bad his numbers were at the beginning of the season and then how good he was in the middle, only to fall off again at the end. And realistically, in terms of the end of the season, I am not going to really evaluate it because I really think the offense checked out because of the pitching. It's a flawed offense, for sure, but I think battling all season and just going through those pitching performances every day wore them down the same way it wore us down. 

I'm sort of with their evaluation (shredder), but only because I can't say that Machado is going to be GREAT next season. I I think for a lot of us, we feel like (baseball is never guaranteed) we know what Trout is going to do, Donaldson, Bryant, etc. We can hope against it sometimes, but we have an expectation. When it comes to Machado, I don't know. He hit a lot of hard balls at the beginning of last season. Do those fall this season instead of turning it outs? Does he put on a more consistent performance or does he have extended periods of the season where he disappears offensively? If the pitching improves, does he remain more engaged throughout the entire season? I don't know. I think watching him every night and seeing what he can be, it causes your perception to skew upwards (thus the fans putting him #2). But is perception reality? I think as everyone else has said, I can't see $300 million. 

Also interesting (and I missed the guy's name so someone can hopefully help me out there), the one guy they brought on seemed very negative about Machado wanting to be shortstop. The gist that I took away was he felt Machado needs to make a decision about do you want to be a big, strong, power guy or a shortstop because you can't do both. That was interesting because, of course, I don't spend much time thinking about his physiology because I am too busy trying to mentally channel him into staying at third because I love watching his defense there. Either way, fun discussion and I think at the end of the day, what the show really said about Machado is, we don't really know where he belongs on the list.