2018 Chris Tillman

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, amdcpus said:

It's also on the team though too. I can't blame Tillman for not wanting to give up the remaining 1.4 million or whatever is left on his contract even if he knows he's done, because the team won't cut him.

If Rasmus quits he’s a quitter, if Tillman doesn’t quit he’s tarnishing his legacy.    To me, the player can follow his heart (and wallet) on the issue of whether to continue his career when his skills have diminished.  It’s their lives.    But I expect the team to be rational in its judgments about who it puts on the field and who stays in the organization.  

PS — I’m not suggesting that Tony criticized Rasmus for leaving; I don’t remember what Tony said about that.    

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You very well may have hit on why Tillman won't retire. He probably wants the rest of the money he's not earning. to me, and this is a very personal opinion that I know not everyone shares, I wouldn't want to cash checks I wasn't earning, especially if I already have made over 25 million dollars in my career. 

I would say, you know what, I had a good run and I'd rather hold me head up high and retire then have the team cut me so I can cash on an extra million or so that I'm not earning. Hell, he already made 10 million last year for an awful season. 

Now some will say he was underpaid in other years so why not cash in now, and I kind of understand that, but I guess if it were me and I was financially set, I'd understand it was time. I would be embarrassed to be hit around by 20-year olds in the minors and embarrassed that I could barely defend myself on a big league mound.

I understand your mindset about how you’d feel about not earning your paycheck, but I think you’re in the minority, and certainly most ballplayers don’t feel that way.    Imagine you’re Tillman, and as of late 2016 you’re cruising along and you’re probably looking at a $50-70 mm payday when you reach free agency at the end of 2017.      Then something happens to you, you screw the pooch in your walk year, and you’re lucky enough to get a $3 mm contract that is probably the last money you’ll make as a pro ballplayer.     I’d give it everything I had to try to pitch decently, and keep every penny of that $3 mm.     And yes, I’d remember that I was only getting paid $500 k in 2014 when I was the ace of a division-winning team, and wouldn’t feel guilty at all about my current salary.  

[Tony-OH]

16 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I understand your mindset about how you’d feel about not earning your paycheck, but I think you’re in the minority, and certainly most ballplayers don’t feel that way.    Imagine you’re Tillman, and as of late 2016 you’re cruising along and you’re probably looking at a $50-70 mm payday when you reach free agency at the end of 2017.      Then something happens to you, you screw the pooch in your walk year, and you’re lucky enough to get a $3 mm contract that is probably the last money you’ll make as a pro ballplayer.     I’d give it everything I had to try to pitch decently, and keep every penny of that $3 mm.     And yes, I’d remember that I was only getting paid $500 k in 2014 when I was the ace of a division-winning team, and wouldn’t feel guilty at all about my current salary.  

And I understand where that mindset comes from, and I'm sure I'm in the minority with my opinion. At the end of the day though, if he's not financially set for life after earning $25 million already, then he needs a better financial advisor. 

Me personally, I'd rather leave my legacy in check than stain it while embarrassing myself all for an extra million or so after taxes!

[TonySoprano]

Tillman isn't anywhere near a HOF players, let alone an Orioles HOFer (which is a much less exclusive club).  I'd bet few in Baltimore remember his name in a decade.  Legacy?  

[Tony-OH]

39 minutes ago, Frobby said:

If Rasmus quits he’s a quitter, if Tillman doesn’t quit he’s tarnishing his legacy.    To me, the player can follow his heart (and wallet) on the issue of whether to continue his career when his skills have diminished.  It’s their lives.    But I expect the team to be rational in its judgments about who it puts on the field and who stays in the organization.  

PS — I’m not suggesting that Tony criticized Rasmus for leaving; I don’t remember what Tony said about that.    

Just to clarify, I never made a comment about Rasmus, but I do respect him for walking away when he clearly can not play at the major league level anymore. 

The team SHOULD be rational in regard to the players, but in a case like Tillman, I think it also falls on the player to guard his legacy. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

Just to clarify, I never made a comment about Rasmus, but I do respect him for walking away when he clearly can not play at the major league level anymore. 

The team SHOULD be rational in regard to the players, but in a case like Tillman, I think it also falls on the player to guard his legacy. 

But it is his legacy.  Look what Palmerio did to his when he was already in his twilight years.

[Tony-OH]

9 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Tillman isn't anywhere near a HOF players, let alone an Orioles HOFer (which is a much less exclusive club).  I'd bet few in Baltimore remember his name in a decade.  Legacy?  

I doubt real Orioles fans will forget about him in ten years. He did have some good years during some years of winning and people will remember that. He also came over in the Bedard trade and will be remembered for being one of the core of players during the winning years, even if his pitching was inconsistent career wise.

Saying that, what I meant by legacy is what the guy will be remembered for. Does he really want to go out as the guy who was historically awful because he couldn't hang them up?

Between last year and this year, he's got to be close to being historically bad over that many starts.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I doubt real Orioles fans will forget about him in ten years. He did have some good years during some years of winning and people will remember that. He also came over in the Bedard trade and will be remembered for being one of the core of players during the winning years, even if his pitching was inconsistent career wise.

Saying that, what I meant by legacy is what the guy will be remembered for. Does he really want to go out as the guy who was historically awful because he couldn't hang them up?

Between last year and this year, he's got to be close to being historically bad over that many starts.

Since he lives in Sarasota I expect him ultimately to be known as a fixture at Oriole spring training.

[beantownrefugee]

14 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

Delmarva 1G, 3.1 IP, 2 ER, 4H, 1BB
Aberdeen 1G, 2.0 IP, 3 ER, 2H, 2 BB
Frederick 1G, 6.1 IP, 4 ER, 5H, 3 BB,1 HBP
Norfolk 2G, 9.2 IP, 9 ER, 17H, 5BB, 1 HBP

5G, 21.1 IP, 18 ER, 28H, 11BB, 2 HBP,  ERA 7.59, WHIP 1.92

But he's "consistent with his velocity."

I attended Chris' start on June 30 in Norfolk.  The numbers above don't belie his struggles.  First two innings were fine.  Really labored in the 3rd and 4th (pitching change in the 4th).  Many ABs went deep in the count.  

[TonySoprano]

13 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I doubt real Orioles fans will forget about him in ten years. He did have some good years during some years of winning and people will remember that. He also came over in the Bedard trade and will be remembered for being one of the core of players during the winning years, even if his pitching was inconsistent career wise.

Saying that, what I meant by legacy is what the guy will be remembered for. Does he really want to go out as the guy who was historically awful because he couldn't hang them up?

Between last year and this year, he's got to be close to being historically bad over that many starts.

Respectfully, if you pick 100 people on Eutaw Street during a game, pulled them aside and asked them to name the 5 guys in the Orioles 2008 starting rotation without looking it up and gave them $20 per name how many walk away with $100?  $20.  OHers are far more informed but without googling it, I'd bet a small subset get the $100.  We're talking about Baltimore fans.  His "legacy" will be even less with overall baseball fans.    Chris Tillman should not earn induction even into the Orioles HOF. 

Tillman was an effective pitcher for 4 seasons (5 if you count 2012 where he wasn't brought up until July). 

If you were Chris Tillman, would you want 2017 to be your legacy?  If he quit now will he change his overall legacy than if he goes until September? 

Give it a few years, and he'll be signing autographs for free on Eutaw Street next to Chris Hoiles, who had much more of a legacy in an Orioles uniform.

I believe Tillman is no different that countless MLers before him who loved the game so much that he hung on as long as he could. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Respectfully, if you pick 100 people on Eutaw Street during a game, pulled them aside and asked them to name the 5 guys in the Orioles 2008 starting rotation without looking it up and gave them $20 per name how many walk away with $100?  $20.  OHers are far more informed but without googling it, I'd bet a small subset get the $100.  We're talking about Baltimore fans.  His "legacy" will be even less with overall baseball fans.  Tillman was an effective pitcher for 4 seasons (5 if you count 2012 where he wasn't brought up until July). 
If you were Chris Tillman, would you want 2017 to be your legacy?  If he quit now will he change his overall legacy than if he goes until September? 

I believe Tillman is no different that countless MLers before him who loved the game so much that he hung on as long as he could.  Chris Tillman should not earn induction even into the Orioles HOF. 

Give it a few years, and he'll be signing autographs for free next to Chris Hoiles, who had much more of a legacy in an Orioles uniform.

Sixty.

Sue me for forget Liz had 17 starts.  I knew Waters as well but he was #6.

[Just Regular]

It's pretty much full Old Yeller now.  On the ethics of paychecks, this is also something where union solidarity is probably also a factor, and management-labor relations aren't the best right now.

For all we critique the FO for screwing up Davis and not locking up Machado, Schoop, and now Gausman/Bundy, I want to acknowledge they got Tillman right.  He looked like a prime extension candidate a few years into his career, and I remember at the height of it looking to Cincinnati's Homer Bailey contract as a possible Tillman benchmark.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, TonySoprano said:

Respectfully, if you pick 100 people on Eutaw Street during a game, pulled them aside and asked them to name the 5 guys in the Orioles 2008 starting rotation without looking it up and gave them $20 per name how many walk away with $100?  $20.  OHers are far more informed but without googling it, I'd bet a small subset get the $100.  We're talking about Baltimore fans.  His "legacy" will be even less with overall baseball fans.  Tillman was an effective pitcher for 4 seasons (5 if you count 2012 where he wasn't brought up until July). 
If you were Chris Tillman, would you want 2017 to be your legacy?  If he quit now will he change his overall legacy than if he goes until September? 

I believe Tillman is no different that countless MLers before him who loved the game so much that he hung on as long as he could.  Chris Tillman should not earn induction even into the Orioles HOF. 

Give it a few years, and he'll be signing autographs for free next to Chris Hoiles, who had much more of a legacy in an Orioles uniform.

That's a much harder question than do you remember Scott Erickson? I agree with you that he is not an Orioles HoFer, but that doesn't mean even casual Orioles fans will forget him in ten years. 

I would bet Chris Tillman is hanging on for a paycheck rather some love of the game while pitching for the worse team in baseball when he has a 1.92 WHIP against minor leaguers.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

It's pretty much full Old Yeller now.  On the ethics of paychecks, this is also something where union solidarity is probably also a factor, and management-labor relations aren't the best right now.

For all we critique the FO for screwing up Davis and not locking up Machado, Schoop, and now Gausman/Bundy, I want to acknowledge they got Tillman right.  He looked like a prime extension candidate a few years into his career, and I remember at the height of it looking to Cincinnati's Homer Bailey contract as a possible Tillman benchmark.

Eh Union didn't say boo when Colby retired...again.

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Tillman isn't anywhere near a HOF players, let alone an Orioles HOFer (which is a much less exclusive club).  I'd bet few in Baltimore remember his name in a decade.  Legacy?  

You don’t think he’s an Orioles Hall of Famer?   I wouldn’t say he’s a shoe-in, but he does rank 12th all-time in wins for this team.    The top 10 are all in the Orioles HOF; the 11th is Scott Erickson, who isn’t.    And Tillman did pitch for three playoff teams.