Trey Mancini is not an outfielder

[SteveA]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:43 PM, OrioleDog said:

It's going to be like Anderson, Devereaux and Finley all over again having Mullins and Hays next year.  If not August 1st.

Little known fact:  those 3 actually very rarely started in the same game.   We always had Phil Bradley on the team when we had those 3 (i.e. before the Glenn Davis trade).

 

[mdbdotcom]

1 hour ago, SteveA said:

Little known fact:  those 3 actually very rarely started in the same game.   We always had Phil Bradley on the team when we had those 3 (i.e. before the Glenn Davis trade).

 

And Joe Orsulak.

[LookitsPuck]

3 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Brady/Buck/Angelos pushed for Davis and Trumbo so blame them. Everyone else can be easily cut. And Jones has "aged," which is completely different. 

Duquette traded for Trumbo. Duquette acquired Alvarez and Valencia. Duquette acquired Kim. Traded for Seth Smith. All of those are glorified DHs with no glove(s). And any number of other DH types over the years. 

This is a fundamental issue w/ Duquette's style. He doesn't care much for defense. This is in direct opposition w/ Buck. 

As for Brady and Angelos, I don't know enough about the kind of players they try to target.

[ThomasTomasz]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:10 PM, atomic said:

Trey just is not suited to be an outfielder.  If you want to keep Trumbo and Davis my suggestion is just to trade Mancini.  Whatever productivity you get from his bat is washed out by his defensive play.   Satander isn't a good outfielder either.   

Time to replace these guys with people who can field.   Bring Rickard back up.   Bring up DJ.   Do something as there is nothing positive about this team. 

So trade Mancini when we have this year, plus four others of team control?  Trumbo is only here for one more season.  

As far as LF goes, it depends on your metrics but he is in the bottom third.  DRS has him the worst out of 13 full-time LFs.  UZR/150 has him 11th, and UZR has him  11th too.  Contending teams have players ranked near him starting- Cespedes has lost a step, and Rhys Hoskins is right above Mancini in all three categories. 

So for a team that is going nowhere, with a player who will be a major part of the next core, doesn't it make sense to have him out there trying to work on his game?   Or just throw the veterans out there and hope they can win........I've seen enough of Trumbo in the outfield.  Let's see what Mancini can do. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

So trade Mancini when we have this year, plus four others of team control?  Trumbo is only here for one more season.  

As far as LF goes, it depends on your metrics but he is in the bottom third.  DRS has him the worst out of 13 full-time LFs.  UZR/150 has him 11th, and UZR has him  11th too.  Contending teams have players ranked near him starting- Cespedes has lost a step, and Rhys Hoskins is right above Mancini in all three categories. 

So for a team that is going nowhere, with a player who will be a major part of the next core, doesn't it make sense to have him out there trying to work on his game?   Or just throw the veterans out there and hope they can win........I've seen enough of Trumbo in the outfield.  Let's see what Mancini can do. 

I question that on multiple levels.

[ThomasTomasz]

41 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Duquette traded for Trumbo. Duquette acquired Alvarez and Valencia. Duquette acquired Kim. Traded for Seth Smith. All of those are glorified DHs with no glove(s). And any number of other DH types over the years. 

This is a fundamental issue w/ Duquette's style. He doesn't care much for defense. This is in direct opposition w/ Buck. 

As for Brady and Angelos, I don't know enough about the kind of players they try to target.

Duquette is old-school, believing in defense up the middle.  He values defense first from catcher, SS, 2B and CF.  This explains why we held onto Wieters for as long as we did, given Joseph the amount of rope that we have over the years.  This explains why Duquette spent so much money extending Hardy, and us starting Schoop early on despite his bat still needing to be developed.  And of course, except for the past two years or so, Jones has provided extreme value defensively in center.  

[ThomasTomasz]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I question that on multiple levels.

If you believe the next core includes Bundy, Givens, Hall, Hays, Mountcastle, etc (plus whichever prospects are acquired this year) Mancini fits that timeframe.  If you think that the core is much further off, then I completely understand.  

EDIT: In any case, my point isn't on the core, my point is letting a young guy get his reps in left field who will provide value down the road, whether that's in terms of future prospects or playing for us.  We aren't competing this year, and I'd rather Mancini get those reps than one of the other veterans. 

[LA2]

54 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Duquette traded for Trumbo. Duquette acquired Alvarez and Valencia. Duquette acquired Kim. Traded for Seth Smith. All of those are glorified DHs with no glove(s). And any number of other DH types over the years. 

This is a fundamental issue w/ Duquette's style. He doesn't care much for defense. This is in direct opposition w/ Buck. 

As for Brady and Angelos, I don't know enough about the kind of players they try to target.

I don't think you're representing Duquette's "style" fairly. What I remember is that Trumbo was acquired in expectation of Davis leaving as a free agent, which was a reasonable assumption until Angelos et al interfered. So he would have become the first baseman, where he 's supposed to be decent. Alvarez seemed like a panic move when Kim was having a horrible spring training and Buck was complaining about him. Smith was not a defensive whiz, but not bad and certainly an improvement over Trumbo, who Duquette envisioned becoming the DH. Unfortunately he had a bad year at the plate and his OPS+ dropped from 122 to 82.

[atomic]

21 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

So trade Mancini when we have this year, plus four others of team control?  Trumbo is only here for one more season.  

As far as LF goes, it depends on your metrics but he is in the bottom third.  DRS has him the worst out of 13 full-time LFs.  UZR/150 has him 11th, and UZR has him  11th too.  Contending teams have players ranked near him starting- Cespedes has lost a step, and Rhys Hoskins is right above Mancini in all three categories. 

So for a team that is going nowhere, with a player who will be a major part of the next core, doesn't it make sense to have him out there trying to work on his game?   Or just throw the veterans out there and hope they can win........I've seen enough of Trumbo in the outfield.  Let's see what Mancini can do. 

I am using the eye test and he is terrible in the outfield.  I dont need defensive metrics to see he doesn't belong in the out field. 

[LA2]

2 minutes ago, atomic said:

I am using the eye test and he is terrible in the outfield.  I dont need defensive metrics to see he doesn't belong in the out field. 

Two of his plays in leftfield last night helped save the win for the O's. Let him improve.

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, LA2 said:

Two of his plays in leftfield last night helped save the win for the O's. Let him improve.

Why do you think he will improve?

 

[LA2]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why do you think he will improve?

 

With some players, like Trumbo, it's very clear he just can't man the position. Mancini doesn't appear that way to me and he's young and intelligent and works hard, which go a lot further in learning to play decent D than in developing certain other skills, like stealing bases. He did well last year as a novice moved off of first base and some of the more standard stats (e.g. assists, RF) both this year and last place him among the leaders in leftfield. Although I can't point to any great omen of his future out there, I have no reason yet to believe he can't improve.

[wildbillhiccup]

2 hours ago, LookitsPuck said:

Duquette traded for Trumbo. Duquette acquired Alvarez and Valencia. Duquette acquired Kim. Traded for Seth Smith. All of those are glorified DHs with no glove(s). And any number of other DH types over the years. 

This is a fundamental issue w/ Duquette's style. He doesn't care much for defense. This is in direct opposition w/ Buck. 

As for Brady and Angelos, I don't know enough about the kind of players they try to target.

...but the two moves that have REALLY handcuffed this franchise are the Davis and Trumbo signings. I'm not defending Duquette's moves or suggesting that he should stay I'm simply saying his mistakes are easily fixable The Davis and Trumbo signings aren't. If Buck and Sideburns were behind those movies they need to be held accountable and they should both be unemployed by the end of the season. 

[LookitsPuck]

19 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

...but the two moves that have REALLY handcuffed this franchise are the Davis and Trumbo signings. I'm not defending Duquette's moves or suggesting that he should stay I'm simply saying his mistakes are easily fixable The Davis and Trumbo signings aren't. If Buck and Sideburns were behind those movies they need to be held accountable and they should both be unemployed by the end of the season. 

I don't agree that Trumbo really handcuffed this franchise. And I'm not entirely sure that Trumbo was a Brady/Angelos thing. 

Davis I'll agree with.

As for moves that are easily fixable, I don't think signings like Ubaldo are easily fixable. Neither was Gallardo, honestly. We got lucky that somebody took him for a single year (albeit expensive) of a one dimensional player like Seth Smith. But it's hard to "fix" losing draft picks, too. Moves like those in addition with all the others set a franchise back years.

Davis is certainly a major problem, regardless.

[ThomasTomasz]

58 minutes ago, LA2 said:

With some players, like Trumbo, it's very clear he just can't man the position. Mancini doesn't appear that way to me and he's young and intelligent and works hard, which go a lot further in learning to play decent D than in developing certain other skills, like stealing bases. He did well last year as a novice moved off of first base and some of the more standard stats (e.g. assists, RF) both this year and last place him among the leaders in leftfield. Although I can't point to any great omen of his future out there, I have no reason yet to believe he can't improve.

This, and last year was one of the first times Mancini was in the outfield during his professional career, and he finished stat-wise as a slightly below average LF'er: -1 DRS and -8.5 UZR/150.  Considering defense is not a strong suit of many LF'ers across the board, I'm content to let him learn the position over the next year or so.  It's not like Mancini's defense is defining us as a competitor versus a pretender.  I'm honestly shocked this was a thread.