It's days like this that make you realize how flawed MLB is... how bleak the future might be

[ORIOLE33]

The NFL still has a better system for small market teams to compete despite small market teams like KC winning the WC because of the hard salary cap. 

If the GB Packers were a MLB team, do you think Aaron Rogers would still be there? Do you think Kirk Cousins would have signed with Minnesota? 

[AndresMora]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:35 AM, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Don’t pay Davis and Trumbo, and suddenly you have the cash to pay Manny. 

Exactly.  The team has poor management and has for a long time.  Everybody knows that the cornerstone of the franchise was Manny.  You never pour big bucks into guys who either hit homers or strike out and especially ones who don't even play in the field.  They could have locked up Manny in 2014 or 15 but they were too dumb to do it.  The Orioles have become a development team for others to pick from.  As soon as we get any real stars, off they will go.  As mentioned above, the future of baseball here is now precarious.  A lot fewer people are going to brave a crime racked city to see teams who win 60-70 games and that is the outlook for the next three years or longer most likely.  Orioles management can't be blamed for the dump much of the city has become but they can be blamed for mismanaging their resources to the point that they are a laughingstock.

[AndresMora]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:48 AM, maybenxtyr said:

They we're on their way to having a quality core of players...they (Angelos and others), gambled on the wrong one's. Mid market teams can not afford to throw money away on what has turned into the worst player in baseball. 

Keeping Manny and Schoop would have obviously been a better investment than Trumbo and Davis, but this is where they are now and they have to deal with it. Maybe things will shift if ownership gets out of the way and gives their baseball people a budget. That's really the only hope for baseball in Baltimore.

You are correct but that will never happen as long as Angelos and kin are involved.

[Mondo Trasho]

1 hour ago, ORIOLE33 said:

The NFL still has a better system for small market teams to compete despite small market teams like KC winning the WC because of the hard salary cap. 

If the GB Packers were a MLB team, do you think Aaron Rogers would still be there? Do you think Kirk Cousins would have signed with Minnesota? 

So we're concerned with the optics of superstars signing with particular teams, not competitive parity?

[Todd-O]

Heading into last season, the teams with the most wins over the previous 10 years was as follows:

1)   Yankees 913

2)   Cardinals 892

3)   Angels 881

4)   Dodgers 878

5)   Red Sox 873

6)   Rangers 861

7)   Tigers 855

   Rays 841

9)   Giants 838

10) Phillies 834

World Series appearances aside, the top 5 speaks volumes... and all those wins most certainly lead to bigger dollars coming in the form of advertising, butts in the seats, and TV audiences.  Seven of those teams were in the top 10 for attendance last year.

We can argue about this til we're blue in the face... but the fact that a core group of teams can buy big name talent even in the face of paying penalties for eclipsing spending lines, while others can't, is lame.   

[TradeAngelos]

The problem isn't baseball, or the Nats.....or Red Sox....or Yankeees, or this......or that. It is the MAN THAT OWNS THE TEAM. Period. End of story. Save all the "we are so poor we couldn't pay him and other teams can" bullcrap. Because that is exactly what it is, garbage. This organization CHOSE not to pay Machado. they will CHOOSE not to pay Schoop (see those quotes in the Athletic today?). They CHOOSE to be run like a dysfunctional mess by the worst ownership in all of sports. You wanna know why the future is bleak? There is your answer. You can come up with all the excuses in the world but until that man or any of his offspring don't own this team anymore, it will be more of the same. Most of you are just in denial judging by the responses in this thread. 

 

[CheeryO]

Manny is one of the top players in the game, but he hasn't really come close to showing he's a generational talent -- yet.  Anyone who signs Manny to a mega contract is taking a gamble.  Is the Manny of 2018 the Manny of the future?  Or is it the sub .900 OPS Manny of the past?   Would love to have Manny back but at a $250 million + contract it has to be some other team to take that risk.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

Manny is one of the top players in the game, but he hasn't really come close to showing he's a generational talent -- yet.  

Depends how you want to define the term, but very few players have accumulated 30 WAR by their age 25 season.    He’s the best player the Orioles have had in a generation, and that’s how I define the term.   

[ThomasTomasz]

On 7/20/2018 at 1:00 PM, AndresMora said:

Exactly.  The team has poor management and has for a long time.  Everybody knows that the cornerstone of the franchise was Manny.  You never pour big bucks into guys who either hit homers or strike out and especially ones who don't even play in the field.  They could have locked up Manny in 2014 or 15 but they were too dumb to do it.  The Orioles have become a development team for others to pick from.  As soon as we get any real stars, off they will go.  As mentioned above, the future of baseball here is now precarious.  A lot fewer people are going to brave a crime racked city to see teams who win 60-70 games and that is the outlook for the next three years or longer most likely.  Orioles management can't be blamed for the dump much of the city has become but they can be blamed for mismanaging their resources to the point that they are a laughingstock.

The whole city perspective needs to be explained to me.  It's popped up here and other threads, and maybe I'm not seeing it.  Aside from the riot days (Saturday being locked in the stadium, and Monday being one of the few people actually in the stadium) nothing has ever happened to me where I feel in danger getting to or leaving the park.  

However, I work in Annapolis, and live 20 minutes south.  I leave work early on days I have tickets (29 game season ticket holder, parking in B/C lot) and I get there by the time the gates open for BP, and I stay until the game is over, walk out and leave.  On rare occasions, some friends/clients prefer to go to Pickles first.  

So yeah, I've never had an issue, but I am open to hearing some issues from you or others that are first-hand or second-hand accounts.

[ThomasTomasz]

58 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

Manny is one of the top players in the game, but he hasn't really come close to showing he's a generational talent -- yet.  Anyone who signs Manny to a mega contract is taking a gamble.  Is the Manny of 2018 the Manny of the future?  Or is it the sub .900 OPS Manny of the past?   Would love to have Manny back but at a $250 million + contract it has to be some other team to take that risk.

With the exception of last season's first half, Machado's offense has been on an upswing.  As he's gotten older, he's added more muscle, more bulk, so doubles earlier in his career turned into homers.  He's got a patient hitting approach now.  The problem is his defense, and that's where a lot of scouts for teams interested in him are going to be looking at him- with us, he was on pace for the worst DRS season by any player, ever.  Could that have been a byproduct of getting used to the position again, and not having Schoop at 2B for part of the year, and no decent 3B defenders, on top of being on the worst team in the league?  Maybe, but if those terrible defensive numbers continue, there is no way I entertain Manny as a shortstop for the future.  

He's definitely a generational talent, though.  As another poster said, 30 WAR by age 26 is crazy.  He's certainly worth the mega contract more than Bryce Harper, who has been voted most overrated player three times by his fellow players and who again is going to limp to a disappointing season.  

[Satyr3206]

If anyone tells you they can't build a winning team with 197 mil a year then they have no idea what they are doing. The system is what it is.

[Dark Helmet]

And it sucks turning on MLB netqorj, and hear them say how great it is Manny is in LA. And how they can't wait to watch them bid against NY and Bos for him this winter. The Yankees tanking for a few years and Boston being bad had as much if not more to do with the O's success than the O's.

Not to take anything away from those 5 years, but when the Yanks and Red Sox are good, they are dominant for a decade because they can afford to keep the guys they want or sign the final pieces they want. When the O's are good, it's hoping the other teams stay down and things go almost perfect for us.

For the Orioles to compete, they have to hope all of their young guys hit the mark together, and they take advantage of that before they become too expensive to keep. It's just the way it is.

[Dark Helmet]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:00 PM, Mondo Trasho said:

Also, from 2003-2017 (15 seasons), 15 NFL franchises made it to the Super Bowl, while 17 MLB franchises made it to the WS.

Looking at a salary cap and saying "the NFL is more competitive" is not accurate. It ignores the role of roster management, sample size, guaranteed vs non-guaranteed contracts, etc.

For example, it's a lot easier for an average team to find a way to win 10 or 11 games out of 16, than it is for an average team to win 90+ games out of 162. This is just reality.

With a salary cap, a team can't go out and get another star QB if theirs goes down. If a team loses their star SS, they can just go out and get another. 

As you said, it's easier for an average NFL team to catch lightening in a bottle over a 16 game season. And in the NFL, one player can make a difference (Tom Brady). In baseball, you need more than one guy to succeed (see Orioles).

[CheeryO]

17 hours ago, Frobby said:

Depends how you want to define the term, but very few players have accumulated 30 WAR by their age 25 season.    He’s the best player the Orioles have had in a generation, and that’s how I define the term.   

Yeah, he's definitely a generational player for the O's.  But it remains to be seen if he's generational across the league.  No one would question Jose Altuve, Mookie Betts and especially Mike Trout getting record breaking contracts.  Manny?  It's a risk, especially as a shortstop.  The Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox would all want Manny at third.  Most of the big spending teams don't need a shortstop -- especially a defensibly questionable one.

[CheeryO]

16 hours ago, ThomasTomasz said:

With the exception of last season's first half, Machado's offense has been on an upswing.  As he's gotten older, he's added more muscle, more bulk, so doubles earlier in his career turned into homers.  He's got a patient hitting approach now.  The problem is his defense, and that's where a lot of scouts for teams interested in him are going to be looking at him- with us, he was on pace for the worst DRS season by any player, ever.  Could that have been a byproduct of getting used to the position again, and not having Schoop at 2B for part of the year, and no decent 3B defenders, on top of being on the worst team in the league?  Maybe, but if those terrible defensive numbers continue, there is no way I entertain Manny as a shortstop for the future.  

He's definitely a generational talent, though.  As another poster said, 30 WAR by age 26 is crazy.  He's certainly worth the mega contract more than Bryce Harper, who has been voted most overrated player three times by his fellow players and who again is going to limp to a disappointing season.  

Yeah, nice post.  I can't see the Dodgers, Yankees or Red Sox pursuing Manny as a SS, and not just because none of those teams need a SS (well, maybe the Dodgers will  -- we'll see how Seager comes back).  Manny belongs at third -- his glove plays better there and his bat is more than fine there.

I agree with everything you say, except that I think 2018 is a bit of a surprise for Manny.  Offensively, his numbers took a pretty big step back last year.  The question is: is Manny taking off?  Or is he one of those players with up and down seasons -- more like Adrian Beltre than A-Rod?  Who wouldn't want to have an Adrian Beltre on their team?  Everyone would.  But Beltre is not paid like he's a generational talent -- even though he is a  generational talent defensively.  That's why I say it's a risk to sign Manny to a 10 years deal worth upwards of $275 million. 

Also, a big reason Manny has a WAR of 30 by age 25 is because he's been a major league starter since he was 19.  He's probably got more mileage on him than most players his age.  And then that cumulative WAR (for what it's worth) -- now at 30 -- will slow down if his defense continues to drag so much.  Maybe all that muscle is slowing him down at shortstop.