Mike Trout GOAT?

[Bubble Buddy]

Something I've been considering the past the few weeks that I don't hear chatter about in the same way you would in other sports:

Does Mike Trout have a chance to go down as the greatest baseball player of all time? 

He won't top any of the traditional career categories like hits, homers, etc. And maybe that's just it. He's the perfect modern ball player.

He literally does everything, year in and year out since age 20. There's almost nothing he's not capable of, kind of like Lebron on a basketball court. 

And yet you don't hear that same GOAT talk like you do with Lebron v. Jordan. 

I know there's better stats (feel free to help out if you feel so inclined), but he's #9 in career OPS. And I imagine he is by far the best defender on that list. I know his average could go down because he is in his prime, but he's also likely to put another 4-5 seasons like his past couple. 

Rank	Player	OPS
1	Babe Ruth *	1.1636
2	Ted Williams *	1.1155
3	Lou Gehrig *	1.0798
4	Barry Bonds	1.0512
5	Jimmie Foxx *	1.0376
6	Hank Greenberg *	1.0169
7	Rogers Hornsby *	1.0103
8	Manny Ramírez	.9960
9	Mike Trout	.9897
10	Mark McGwire	.9823

 

What do y'all think about Mike Trout as GOAT? Is GOAT unimportant in baseball? Too hard to measure? Too hallowed of ground? 

[Can_of_corn]

I think Bonds was a comparable defender at the same age.

 

If you are of the mindset that the overall quality of play increases over time than yes Trout is the best.

[Bubble Buddy]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think Bonds was a comparable defender at the same age.

 

If you are of the mindset that the overall quality of play increases over time than yes Trout is the best.

It's just interesting. I guess eras are harder to compare in baseball and it's got a longer history, but it doesn't seem to much of a convo.

Whereas basketball it feels like it's constantly part of the conversation. And then you've got what Brady has done in football that has pretty much cemented him as the GOAT. 

[scOtt]

I'd choose this GOAT but I'm weird like that.....

 

[Redskins Rick]

13 hours ago, scOtt said:

I'd choose this GOAT but I'm weird like that.....

 

 

My all-time favorite Muscle car of all ages!!!!!!

[Frobby]

Too early to say how Trout will be judged at the end of his career.    I wish I got to see him play more often.   To me he’s a WAR machine on the stat sheet but I don’t really know him as a player the way I know the East Coast players or the guys who’ve played a lot of postseason baseball.   

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

When you go by OPS+, Trout looks even better.  Fifth on the career list currently. 

Rank	Player (yrs, age)	Adjusted OPS+	Bats
1.	Babe Ruth+ (22)	206	L
2.	Ted Williams+ (19)	190	L
3.	Barry Bonds (22)	182	L
4.	Lou Gehrig+ (17)	179	L
5.	Rogers Hornsby+ (23)	175	R
	Mike Trout (8, 26)	175	R
7.	Mickey Mantle+ (18)	172	B
8.	Dan Brouthers+ (19)	171	L
9.	Shoeless Joe Jackson (13)	170	L
10.	Ty Cobb+ (24)	168	L

[DrungoHazewood]

On 2/26/2019 at 11:35 AM, Can_of_corn said:

If you are of the mindset that the overall quality of play increases over time than yes Trout is the best.

Yes, I think he'll have a very good argument if he ages gracefully.  Through age 26 he's the all-time leader in rWAR among position players. That doesn't take into account the slope of history. 

He's about a win ahead of Ty Cobb, who played before integration, affiliated minor league ball, modern scouting, relief pitching, the information revolution, weight training, sports medicine, international players, etc.  They don't have complete splits on Cobb, but on available data he faced a starting pitcher a 4th time in a game 2/3rds as often as he faced him the first time... and the 4th time facing a starter he hit .406.  Trout has over 3000 career PAs, but only 130 facing a starter a 4th time.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Yes, I think he'll have a very good argument if he ages gracefully.  Through age 26 he's the all-time leader in rWAR among position players. That doesn't take into account the slope of history. 

He's about a win ahead of Ty Cobb, who played before integration, affiliated minor league ball, modern scouting, relief pitching, the information revolution, weight training, sports medicine, international players, etc.  They don't have complete splits on Cobb, but on available data he faced a starting pitcher a 4th time in a game 2/3rds as often as he faced him the first time... and the 4th time facing a starter he hit .406.  Trout has over 3000 career PAs, but only 130 facing a starter a 4th time.  

Hard to fathom the numbers Trout would put up against Cobb's competition.  At least once he learned how to hit the spit ball.

[DrungoHazewood]

50 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Hard to fathom the numbers Trout would put up against Cobb's competition.  At least once he learned how to hit the spit ball.

That's why I want a major league star to get into a real contract dispute and out of spite go play in the Atlantic League.  Even someone like a Mancini or a Villar would hit .400 with so much power that they'd be IBB'd once a game.  They wouldn't ever pitch to Trout, unless it was already 13-1.

The first partial spitball ban was in the winter of 1919-1920.  How much of Ruth's jump from 29 homers to 54 was because of that?  (I'll answer my own question.  Probably not much - his road homers only went up from 20 to 25 from '19 to '20.  But he was sold to NY, and the Polo Grounds were a much easier target than Fenway at that time.  His home homers went from 9 to 29.)

[Frobby]

On 3/7/2019 at 2:56 PM, DrungoHazewood said:

That's why I want a major league star to get into a real contract dispute and out of spite go play in the Atlantic League.  Even someone like a Mancini or a Villar would hit .400 with so much power that they'd be IBB'd once a game.  They wouldn't ever pitch to Trout, unless it was already 13-1.

The first partial spitball ban was in the winter of 1919-1920.  How much of Ruth's jump from 29 homers to 54 was because of that?  (I'll answer my own question.  Probably not much - his road homers only went up from 20 to 25 from '19 to '20.  But he was sold to NY, and the Polo Grounds were a much easier target than Fenway at that time.  His home homers went from 9 to 29.)

I read in a novel in which Babe Ruth was a tangential character that they changed the rules about using dirty baseballs in one if those offeseasons and (it was implied) the whiter balls were easier to see and hit (and maybe traveled further, too).   Not sure if that’s historically accurate but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Edit - looks like that change was made at the same time they outlawed the spitter, before the 1921 season.