Why all the “closer” talk?

[HowAboutThat]

I have never understood the idea of a “closer.” Isn’t the very idea of a closer obsolete?

Saving your best reliever for the 9th is limiting, isn’t it?

[Moose Milligan]

Haven't seen much closer talk.

I'm more of a fan of using your best reliever for the 2-3-4 batters in the 8th inning instead of the 5-6-7 guys in the 9th.

[Redskins Rick]

26 minutes ago, Philip said:

I have never understood the idea of a “closer.” Isn’t the very idea of a closer obsolete?

Saving your best reliever for the 9th is limiting, isn’t it?

Are you related to @Can_of_corn?????

The idea of the closer is to win games and put out the fire and keep the opposing team from winning the game.

Which is the overall desire, to win games.

 

[Redskins Rick]

15 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Haven't seen much closer talk.

I'm more of a fan of using your best reliever for the 2-3-4 batters in the 8th inning instead of the 5-6-7 guys in the 9th.

Both roles are very important.

Some guys just cant handle the pressure of the "closer" tag/role.

[interloper]

59 minutes ago, Philip said:

I have never understood the idea of a “closer.” Isn’t the very idea of a closer obsolete?

Saving your best reliever for the 9th is limiting, isn’t it?

Man wakes up from 30 year coma, discovers baseball's use of "closer". 

[El Gordo]

Ideally you have two guys, cAL and a Fireman. CheCK is a guy who consistently gives you clean innings consistently in the 9th. The Fireman comes in in any high pressure situation and gets outs.

[backwardsk]

I'm all for bullpen innovation, but one of the reasons that a closer is saved for the ninth and not used in other leveraged situations is this:

Say your starter is is cruising in a 2-0 game into the seventh.  Then he let's a guy get on base, you feel he's tiring and you get a guy loose.  Is it the closer or another reliever?  Now as the reliever gets warm, runners are on the corners and the go ahead batter is up.  You'd love to have your Rivera, Hoffman, Kimbrel, Jansen, etc in for this situation.  So choosing your closer turns out great.  

Now let's say you got your closer up, but this time your starter rolls a double play and gets out of the seventh harmlessly.  You either bring in your closer for the eighth, have him not come in, or warm him up again for the ninth if the score is close.

Over 162 games you don't want your bullpen up and down multiple times a game.

Point is, your highest leverage situation may only be known in hindsight.

I agree with Moose in his hypothetical about the eighth.

I wouldn't use my closer in a three run game unless he needs to get work in.  And I'd never do it if he pitched the day before.

If I was Hyde, I'd try to convert some of these fringe starters into 2-3 inning effort guys and recreate my roster that way.

[wildbillhiccup]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

I have never understood the idea of a “closer.” Isn’t the very idea of a closer obsolete?

Saving your best reliever for the 9th is limiting, isn’t it?

It is and we're to the point now that most teams are going away from a set closer. I was prepping for my annual fantasy draft this weekend and counted about 10 actual bonafide closers on MLB teams. Everyone else seems to be going the committee route. It's to the point where we had to change one of the categories in our league from just saves to saves+holds. 

All that said this conversation doesn't really pertain to the Orioles since they don't have a lock down reliever like Hader or Miller on their roster. 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Philip said:

I have never understood the idea of a “closer.” Isn’t the very idea of a closer obsolete?

Saving your best reliever for the 9th is limiting, isn’t it?

I just did a little random math.

In 2013, the top 30 pitchers in saves accumulated 1012 saves, out of a total of 1266.   So, they accounted for 80% of all saves.   

In 2018, the top 30 accumulated 804 saves of 1244, or 65%. 

That does suggest that teams are getting away from having one designated closer who always pitches in save situations.    Or, it could just mean that a lot of closers got hurt or replaced for ineffectiveness last year.

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Haven't seen much closer talk.

I'm more of a fan of using your best reliever for the 2-3-4 batters in the 8th inning instead of the 5-6-7 guys in the 9th.

There was an article at Camden Chat about Givens as closer. I didn’t like the article, but it elicited my question.

[Redskins Rick]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I just did a little random math.

In 2013, the top 30 pitchers in saves accumulated 1012 saves, out of a total of 1266.   So, they accounted for 80% of all saves.   

In 2018, the top 30 accumulated 804 saves of 1244, or 65%. 

That does suggest that teams are getting away from having one designated closer who always pitches in save situations.    Or, it could just mean that a lot of closers got hurt or replaced for ineffectiveness last year.

I wonder how many of those are because of the 3 inning rule, and middle relievers coming in after a quick hook by the manager.

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

Are you related to @Can_of_corn?????

The idea of the closer is to win games and put out the fire and keep the opposing team from winning the game.

Which is the overall desire, to win games.

 

I think that’s limited. The idea of the closer is to keep one reliever in reserve until the final ~3 puts pf the game, INSTEAD of using him in the highest leverage situation. The idea is that if you have a dangerous 6th inning situation, bases loaded and 1 out, you won’t use your best reliever because “he’s our closer” and you only use him in the 9th. I think that’s questionable logic, because it anticipates a 9th-inning need for your best reliever that may never happen, while you’ve got a real need Right now.

thats the logic that I think is obsolete.

[wildbillhiccup]

10 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I just did a little random math.

In 2013, the top 30 pitchers in saves accumulated 1012 saves, out of a total of 1266.   So, they accounted for 80% of all saves.   

In 2018, the top 30 accumulated 804 saves of 1244, or 65%. 

That does suggest that teams are getting away from having one designated closer who always pitches in save situations.    Or, it could just mean that a lot of closers got hurt or replaced for ineffectiveness last year.

I think it's more this than the latter. By my count these are the only bonafide closers going into the 2019 season. It's basically 10 and 11 if/when Kimbrel signs with someone. That's less than half the league.
Treinen (OAK)
Chapman (NYY)
Doolittle (WSH)
Jansen (LAD)
Hand (CLE)
KImbrel (TBD)
Vazquez (PIT)
Osuna (HOU)
Allen (LAA)
LeClerc (TEX)
Greene (DET)

[HowAboutThat]

11 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I think it's more this than the latter. By my count these are the only bonafide closers going into the 2019 season. It's basically 10 and 11 if/when Kimbrel signs with someone. That's less than half the league.
Treinen (OAK)
Chapman (NYY)
Doolittle (WSH)
Jansen (LAD)
Hand (CLE)
KImbrel (TBD)
Vazquez (PIT)
Osuna (HOU)
Allen (LAA)
LeClerc (TEX)
Greene (DET)

Is Chapman designated closer for the Yanks? I thought they were going to use a committee BP?

[Redskins Rick]

8 minutes ago, Philip said:

Is Chapman designated closer for the Yanks? I thought they were going to use a committee BP?

MLB has Chapman listed as CL.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/team/depth_chart/?c_id=nyy

Quote

Yankees: Aroldis Chapman
The Yankees' closer situation is clear-cut, with Chapman set to be again entrusted with the ninth inning. Chapman converted 32 of 34 save opportunities last season with a 2.45 ERA, holding opponents to a .136 average while leading all relievers with a 16.3 K/9 ratio. Chapman missed four weeks late in the season due to left knee tendinitis, but with Dellin Betances, Zach Britton and Adam Ottavino pacing their setup crew, the Yanks appear to be well covered in the event of any similar absences in 2019. -- Bryan Hoch