O's trade International Signing Bonus Slots to Blue Jays for OF Dwight Smith Jr

[LTO's]

4 hours ago, atomic said:

 

Really just doing the same old same old.  Not doing anything Internationally and making excuses. 

Did you not read anything he said? They are spending money on the international players that are left. There are not any good players left. With your vast knowledge of the international market please explain what you would do that Koby Perez isn't?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, LTO's said:

Did you not read anything he said? They are spending money on the international players that are left. There are not any good players left. With your vast knowledge of the international market please explain what you would do that Koby Perez isn't?

They (The O's not Elias) were outbid by the Marlins and the Rays for Mesa and Gaston.  They don't appear to be interested in Sanchez .

Are the O's interested in Villalobos? 

I'm not sure how you can say no good players are out there when Sanchez and Villalobos haven't signed.

[SteveA]

10 hours ago, Frobby said:

I found this statement by Meoli intriguing: “Instead, they traded more bonus pool money away in the summer in a deal with the Philadelphia Phillies that proved to be a part of a previous deal between the two clubs, causing plenty of consternation.”    This suggests the Zoellner deal was somehow related to a prior deal between the two clubs.     Looking back, could this mean the Alec Asher deal from March 2017?    That deal was for “a player to be named later or cash considerations.”   We never did send them a player.    

Makes as much sense as anything.   At the time I and a couple others speculated maybe we botched the Adam Jones situation and over-promised that we could deliver his acceptance of the deal and we "owed" the Phillies a little something to make it right.

But I think this makes more sense.

[LTO's]

34 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

They don't appear to be interested in Sanchez .

That's not true in the slightest. A contingent of the FO went to scout him in person. Not thinking a not very projectable slap hitting SS is worthy of 2.5 million+ does not mean they aren't "interested" in Sanchez. He also might not have any interest in coming here when he will certainly have more choices in a few months.

By and large there aren't any good players out there. That's just a fact. And there won't be many there next period either given the nature of this process. This has been said in here and elsewhere numerous times. After DD, shouldn't fans be happy that Elias is being transparent and not just blowing smoke?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, LTO's said:

That's not true in the slightest. A contingent of the FO went to scout him in person. Not thinking a not very projectable slap hitting SS is worthy of 2.5 million+ does not mean they aren't "interested" in Sanchez. He also might not have any interest in coming here when he will certainly have more choices in a few months.

By and large there aren't any good players out there. That's just a fact. And there won't be many there next period either given the nature of this process. This has been said in here and elsewhere numerous times. After DD, shouldn't fans be happy that Elias is being transparent and not just blowing smoke?

Right, and they went to look at Mesa and Gaston before allowing themselves to be outbid.

It looks like they either don't have permission or the funds to spend significant money.

And once again, since you ignored it the last time, what problem do you have with Villalobos?  Do you know something I don't?  Why don't you think he's "good"?

[LTO's]

17 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right, and they went to look at Mesa and Gaston before allowing themselves to be outbid.

It looks like they either don't have permission or the funds to spend significant money.

It's been reported that the Orioles offered Mesa millions of dollars after spending hundreds of thousands on some of the late bloomers left. They offered plenty of money. The Mesas and Gaston chose to play in Florida. That's where they wanted to be. Why do people insist on living in the pretend world where these guys don't have any sort of agency and cannot choose to play in a location that is much more desirable for them? Additionally, how much would you have given up for Mesa? He's a fourth OF profile and is already 22. Is it prudent to just offer way more than he's worth? 

I admittedly know nothing about Villalobos. But as a rule of thumb, I'm against spending just to spend. There has to be a valuation scale and I trust Koby Perez and his track record to make that call. There's 0 proof that the sons are significantly restricted Elias from spending money internationally. At least give him the start of a new cycle to make that proclamation for Pete's sake. 

 

[atomic]

1 hour ago, LTO's said:

Did you not read anything he said? They are spending money on the international players that are left. There are not any good players left. With your vast knowledge of the international market please explain what you would do that Koby Perez isn't?

They said they wont be signing any top guys next year either. I am not sure what you guys are blindly supporting everything Elias has not been doing.

[Can_of_corn]

13 minutes ago, LTO's said:

It's been reported that the Orioles offered Mesa millions of dollars after spending hundreds of thousands on some of the late bloomers left. They offered plenty of money. The Mesas and Gaston chose to play in Florida. That's where they wanted to be. Why do people insist on living in the pretend world where these guys don't have any sort of agency and cannot choose to play in a location that is much more desirable for them? Additionally, how much would you have given up for Mesa? He's a fourth OF profile and is already 22. Is it prudent to just offer way more than he's worth? 

I admittedly know nothing about Villalobos. But as a rule of thumb, I'm against spending just to spend. There has to be a valuation scale and I trust Koby Perez and has track record to make that call. There's 0 proof that the sons are significantly restricted Elias from spending money internationally. At least give him the start of a new cycle to make that proclamation for Pete's sake. 

 

Mesa and Gaston chose to go where they were offered the most money.  The Orioles never really tested their resolve to stay in Florida by making a competitive offer. 

Why do people insist on living in the pretend world where offering less money counts as making an honest attempt to sign premium talent?  "We know you like Miami more than Baltimore, would less money change your mind?"

Yes, I would have handed over almost my whole pool for Mesa.  Six million for a nearly ML ready fourth outfielder is kinda a bargain when you can pay him 555K a year for his first three years.  I think there is a good chance he ends up better than Mullins.  Dodgers spent over 15M on Diaz and had to pay penalties.

Villalobos is a Catcher from Mexico, you know that country that just came to an agreement with MLB.  Folks in the know seem to think he might be a "good" prospect.

[atomic]

7 minutes ago, LTO's said:

It's been reported that the Orioles offered Mesa millions of dollars after spending hundreds of thousands on some of the late bloomers left. They offered plenty of money. The Mesas and Gaston chose to play in Florida. That's where they wanted to be. Why do people insist on living in the pretend world where these guys don't have any sort of agency and cannot choose to play in a location that is much more desirable for them? Additionally, how much would you have given up for Mesa? He's a fourth OF profile and is already 22. Is it prudent to just offer way more than he's worth? 

I admittedly know nothing about Villalobos. But as a rule of thumb, I'm against spending just to spend. There has to be a valuation scale and I trust Koby Perez and his track record to make that call. There's 0 proof that the sons are significantly restricted Elias from spending money internationally. At least give him the start of a new cycle to make that proclamation for Pete's sake. 

 

The offers the Orioles made were millions short.  Why do you assume Cuban players want to only play in Florida when plenty of top guys have signed to play elsewhere.  

[LTO's]

19 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes, I would have handed over almost my whole pool for Mesa.  Six million for a nearly ML ready fourth outfielder is kinda a bargain when you can pay him 555K a year for his first three years.  I think there is a good chance he ends up better than Mullins. 

I mean this respectfully, but I'm glad you aren't the GM then. Given the nature of the market now, that's a gross overpay. I don't agree that he's near ML ready and I also don't agree that there's a "good chance" he ends up as a better CF than Mullins. He's basically 45 FV at this point (he just got injured) which is worse than Hays and Diaz.  And given that he was a package deal, you'd have to give a million+ to his brother who probably wouldn't even sniff the O's top 30. 

It's fine to be of the opinion that the O's should just blow through this money for the sake of it but at least be honest and acknowledge it isn't a "bargain." It's a highly reactionary way of doing things. 

Can you link me to any reputable reporting that Villalobos is looking to sign in this period? 

[LTO's]

19 minutes ago, atomic said:

The offers the Orioles made were millions short.  Why do you assume Cuban players want to only play in Florida when plenty of top guys have signed to play elsewhere.  

The brothers wanted to play in Florida from the beginning and they got paid more than they would be worth if they signed in the next period. I will ask you pointedly, how much more money would you have given them than the 6 million they got from Miami? Give me names of players that you would sign that are available right now and for how much. It is insane you are critiquing Elias for not doing anything (That's not even true anyway, they are signing players) when he was handed the reins VERY late in a process that literally takes years to get ahead of. Take these reactionary posts to Facebook.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, LTO's said:

I mean this respectfully, but I'm glad you aren't the GM then. Given the nature of the market now, that's a gross overpay. I don't agree that he's near ML ready and I also don't agree that there's a "good chance" he ends up as a better CF than Mullins. He's basically 45 FV at this point (he just got injured) which is worse than Hays and Diaz.  And given that he was a package deal, you'd have to give a million+ to his brother who probably wouldn't even sniff the O's top 30. 

It's fine to be of the opinion that the O's should just blow through this money for the sake of it but at least be honest and acknowledge it isn't a "bargain." It's a highly reactionary way of doing things. 

Can you link me to any reputable reporting that Villalobos is looking to sign in this period? 

And that is not what I have ever said.

You know I've never said that.

 

Folks were comping Mesa to pre-concussion Gentry.  If you can get 2011-2013 Gentry for 8M you do it.  You seem to be confusing what over 30 corner outfielders are getting with how folks are valuing young center fielders.  As I said the Dodgers spent over 30M on Diaz, that was before the hard slotting but shows how guys are valued.

No I don't have any information of if Villalobos is looking to sign.  I think it is highly likely that he would rather sign than miss a half season of development.  Who knows, maybe his parents are rich and he doesn't need the money.

[wildbillhiccup]

26 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Mesa and Gaston chose to go where they were offered the most money.  The Orioles never really tested their resolve to stay in Florida by making a competitive offer. 

Why do people insist on living in the pretend world where offering less money counts as making an honest attempt to sign premium talent?  "We know you like Miami more than Baltimore, would less money change your mind?"

Yes, I would have handed over almost my whole pool for Mesa.  Six million for a nearly ML ready fourth outfielder is kinda a bargain when you can pay him 555K a year for his first three years.  I think there is a good chance he ends up better than Mullins.  Dodgers spent over 15M on Diaz and had to pay penalties.

Villalobos is a Catcher from Mexico, you know that country that just came to an agreement with MLB.  Folks in the know seem to think he might be a "good" prospect.

The Orioles didn't outbid or even match the Marlins offer for either player so we'll never know where they would have preferred to play if all things had been equal. That's not on Elias though. That's on the bumbling idiot Brady Anderson who they put in charge of those signings after they let Duquette go. Or, bigger picture, it's on the men who gave Anderson the power to be in that position. Hopefully they learned their lesson and they give Elias legitimate autonomy to turn this thing around. 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

The Orioles didn't outbid or even match the Marlins offer for either player so we'll never know where they would have preferred to play if all things had been equal. That's not on Elias though. That's on the bumbling idiot Brady Anderson who they put in charge of those signings after they let Duquette go. Or, bigger picture, it's on the men who gave Anderson the power to be in that position. Hopefully they learned their lesson and they give Elias legitimate autonomy to turn this thing around. 

I've never said otherwise, in fact I made the same point earlier.

It isn't fair to blame Brady however, he wasn't the one officially in charge when the Mesa/Gaston deals went down.

I'm not blaming Elias for any of this.  I'm of the mind that either ownership is limiting how much he can spend on International players (shades of dad) or the overall budget is so low that Elias is prioritizing spending money elsewhere.

But the idea that teams are trading for 750K in slot money to round out their DSL teams is just silly.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

 

As Elias pointed out, it's not money, it's how much you "could" spend.   Just because a team traded for a 750K slot doesn't mean they are going to spend 750K.  Maybe they are only going to spend 100K or 150K or whatever.   The slots have no value to the Orioles because they aren't going to use them.    Elias mentioned that some or all of these teams were  'capped out" so they had nothing left to spend.

In the end, no one knows the whole story, but it certainly seems as though Elias has a plan to ramp up the spending in the international market over the next 2-3 years until we are a major player in that market.   He has stated over and over again that, in his opinion, there isn't a lot left to spend on.     He mentioned not spending just for the sake of spending.   You can take him at his word or you can assume he's a liar or just a dope who was lied to by the current owners.   He certainly talks like a man who plans on being a big time player in the Latin American amateur FA market.

So did Dan when he was hired.

If teams are only planning on spending 150K why did the O's agree to send them 750?  Why not stop at one 250K slot?  Unless maybe the O's want to lower the slots they have on hand so at the end of the period they don't have as much left unspent?