O's trade International Signing Bonus Slots to Blue Jays for OF Dwight Smith Jr

[theocean]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Hypothetical-

We trade 750K in international slots to the Jays.  Jays use that money to sign a player that ends up a winning lottery ticket.  Said player beats the O's heads in for six years.

Was Dwight Smith Jr a free player?

 

Now is that a likely scenario?  Of course not, but if you are giving another team an asset you can't say it's free. 

It is conceivably better for the O's to let the slots dissipate unused instead of allowing other teams to use them.

You can do the same hypothetical where Dwight Smith ends up bring a winning lottery ticket.

As a team, you want to get as much value out of the resources that you have. If Dwight Smith Jr is a better player than what they would get with the International Money they traded to the Jays, that is a good move. It's near the end of the signing window, the talent pool is thin. It also appears that you need to have an established relationship with some of these players in order to sign them. Throwing money at them isn't the end-all-be-all in the Latin Market. 

It's pretty clear they want to focus on International talent. So far, the Angelos Sons have done pretty much everything right with the team completely under their control. I can't see them having such a backward view on International signings when they are so forward-thinking with every other decision.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Number5 said:

Of course it is conceivable.  It is conceivable that every trade in history works out better for the other team.  I'd prefer that the Orioles' GM, however, make deals based on what he believes to be likely, rather than never make a trade for fear that it won't work out.

 

2 minutes ago, theocean said:

You can do the same hypothetical where Dwight Smith ends up bring a winning lottery ticket.

As a team, you want to get as much value out of the resources that you have. If Dwight Smith Jr is a better player than what they would get with the International Money they traded to the Jays, that is a good move. It's near the end of the signing window, the talent pool is thin. It also appears that you need to have an established relationship with some of these players in order to sign them. Throwing money at them isn't the end-all-be-all in the Latin Market. 

It's pretty clear they want to focus on International talent. So far, the Angelos Sons have done pretty much everything right with the team completely under their control. I can't see them having such a backward view on International signings when they are so forward-thinking with every other decision.

The point I was making is that these players being acquired for slots are not "Free". 

I think that is a bad mindset to have when looking at these deals.

[atomic]

3 minutes ago, theocean said:

 

 It's pretty clear they want to focus on International talent. So far, the Angelos Sons have done pretty much everything right with the team completely under their control. I can't see them having such a backward view on International signings when they are so forward-thinking with every other decision.

Uh what have they done?  Really no moves have been done since the off-season started.  I see giving them the benefit of the doubt but the clearly have done nothing in this regard. 

Please tell me one thing Elias and company have done this off-season that DD would not have done?  I think the one thing ownership has shown is that they want to cut cost. Perhaps they want to sell the team or they just want more profits but all I have seen is cost-cutting moves since the sons took over. 

[interloper]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

 

The point I was making is that these players being acquired for slots are not "Free". 

I think that is a bad mindset to have when looking at these deals.

I guess I agree with that upon further thought. But this close to the signing deadline they are about as close to free as you can get. The other team would have to really get lucky. Which is certainly possible. But the O's could get lucky with the no-name international guys they've been signing as well. 

[interloper]

3 minutes ago, atomic said:

Uh what have they done?  Really no moves have been done since the off-season started.  I see giving them the benefit of the doubt but the clearly have done nothing in this regard. 

Please tell me one thing Elias and company have done this off-season that DD would not have done?  I think the one thing ownership has shown is that they want to cut cost. Perhaps they want to sell the team or they just want more profits but all I have seen is cost-cutting moves since the sons took over. 

You're seeing what you want to see. Others are seeing expanding the analytics department (Sig mentioning only 1 developer, they've since hired more and will continue to hire more), expanding/improving the Dominican facilities, expanding/improving technology at all levels of the system, hiring an international director, etc. 

Yes, they have cut costs significantly in terms of payroll, as is in line with rebuilds of this nature. I don't understand why you don't just give it some time? 

[jtschrei]

It's true that the "international money" is not free money. It's still money.

However, the Os are acquiring a prospect in Smith for $750K at a position of need. I have no problem with the move. We probably could have traded a low A-ball reliever for Smith but many would have second-guessed that too. 

Bottom line -- the O's bought Smith. He could be a useful bridge to our younger OFs in the minors like McKenna. We'll see.

[atomic]

2 minutes ago, interloper said:

You're seeing what you want to see. Others are seeing expanding the analytics department (Sig mentioning only 1 developer, they've since hired more and will continue to hire more), expanding/improving the Dominican facilities, expanding/improving technology at all levels of the system, hiring an international director, etc. 

 Yes, they have cut costs significantly, as is in line with rebuilds of this nature. I don't understand why you don't just give it some time? 

I am giving them time. But when they are already saying they won't have significant signings for next years international signing period that makes me worry.  And remember even DD was able to sign Cuban guys for $750k Henry U and another guy. 

Giving the team more time is find but praising him for things he hasn't doesn't make sense.  When DD came aboard he got Fred Ferreira who signed Miguel  Gonzales and the Orioles also signed Chen and Wada.  And he said they would invest in the International market.

So far nothing from the team. 

[interloper]

12 minutes ago, atomic said:

I am giving them time. But when they are already saying they won't have significant signings for next years international signing period that makes me worry.  And remember even DD was able to sign Cuban guys for $750k Henry U and another guy. 

Giving the team more time is find but praising him for things he hasn't doesn't make sense.  When DD came aboard he got Fred Ferreira who signed Miguel  Gonzales and the Orioles also signed Chen and Wada.  And he said they would invest in the International market.

So far nothing from the team. 

I gotcha. I think what we will eventually see from Elias is a more full-on participation in the international market akin to what we see from the Red Sox, etc. A robust participation rather than DD's kind of surface level involvement. DD had some good signings early on and then kind of fell out of the market. When he missed on Wada, that seemed to be it for PA. Seemed like he pulled the plug after that. 

Now we wait and see if the sons have plugged it back in. There's certainly two ways to think about that right now. You're looking for hard evidence out of the gate and I'm choosing to take Elias at his word and look at things like the Koby hiring. Would Koby come here from the Indians if he didn't think he'd be used at all? With the kind of title he got? Fred was never a "director". 

Another way to think of it is that Elias has so far kept his word on analytics and we've already seen steady improvement there, so I don't think he would be all talk re: international. I don't think it's quite as easy to get the international thing up and running. However, I am curious to see what involvement, if any, they have in the Asian market. Duquette was fond of dealing in that space, but other than Chen he mostly struck out. 

[Can_of_corn]

Koji worked out well.

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Koji worked out well.

MacPhail. 

[Number5]

9 minutes ago, jtschrei said:

It's true that the "international money" is not free money. It's still money.

However, the Os are acquiring a prospect in Smith for $750K at a position of need. I have no problem with the move. We probably could have traded a low A-ball reliever for Smith but many would have second-guessed that too. 

Bottom line -- the O's bought Smith. He could be a useful bridge to our younger OFs in the minors like McKenna. We'll see.

No.  It's not.  It is the ability to spend that much more money.  We did not send any cash to Toronto for Smith.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, interloper said:

MacPhail. 

Right.

Chen I think was also at least partially MacPhail.  The ground work.

[interloper]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right.

Chen I think was also at least partially MacPhail.  The ground work.

So if that's the case, Dan only hit on Gonzo. And it was a fantastic hit. But that's really it. Missed on the Korean pitcher. Missed on Alvarez and Urrutia. Missed on Wada. Missed on Kim, unless you want to pin that on Buck.  But no matter how much that dude gets on base, he was going to have a tough time finding a ML home with that defense. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, interloper said:

So if that's the case, Dan only hit on Gonzo. And it was a fantastic hit. But that's really it. Missed on the Korean pitcher. Missed on Alvarez and Urrutia. Missed on Wada. Missed on Kim, unless you want to pin that on Buck.

I'm not saying Dan doesn't deserve some credit for Chen, he did sign him.  I just think that some preliminary work was done before he joined the team.

They did miss hard on Kim Seong-min.  That whole situation still bothers me.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right.

Chen I think was also at least partially MacPhail.  The ground work.

First time I ever heard Chen’s name was from Buck at some offseason banquet, after MacPhail had left but before Duquette started.   So yes, I think the groundwork started under MacPhail, or at least was done by the people who MacPhail had put in place.