Os may limit 3rd time thru the order for SP

[DrungoHazewood]

21 minutes ago, Mayor McCheese said:

We are going outside the box here... no need for a closer...  You put him in as your first inning opener. Maybe even 2.

So the issue with openers, and the reason you slot in all your relievers at the end, is that you can pick and choose the best relievers for important situations.  If you use all your best relievers to start the game you'll often have your dominant short guy, like peak Zach Britton, pitching the first inning or two of a 12-3 game.  At first pitch you have no way of knowing how the game will turn out. He'll have little impact on the outcome of a lot of games.

Last year Ryan Stanek was the Rays' opener 29 times.  He ended up with a leverage index of 1.14.

Zach Britton's LI during his good run as O's closer, just as a 9th inning standard closer with Buck managing to the save rule, was between 1.5 and 1.7.  So his average appearance was 40% more important than Stanek's.  His pitching was far more impactful in about the same number of innings as an opener's.

Maybe there are legitimate reasons to use an opener, but I don't see any way an opener would be as valuable as a late inning reliever.

[esmd]

35 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You need multiple inning relievers to be able to do this effectively. Basically you need a couple bridgemen who can cover 2 or even 3 innings. Make guys like Yacobonis, Castro, and even guys like Ynoa more valuable. Rogers and Means could also be these kind of guys.

I was trying to formulate a similar thought, but you did it better than I could.  Probably increases the chances of some of those guys making the team.

[Hallas]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

That's a big change from Buck trying to get the starter to go 6 innings to save the pen and giving up a bunch of run in the fifth.

I thought Buck only did this when he was trying to get a couple of his bullpen guys a day off and didn't have enough arms there to start going to the pen before the 7th inning.

In fairness to your point, this occurred more often than not last year because our starters sucked so often that the bullpen always needed a day off.

[now]

The logical result will not be the 14-man pen, except virtually it will be a 20-man pen, with the Norfolk (and maybe even Bowie) shuttle alive and running full steam ahead.

[Frobby]

59 minutes ago, Es4M11 said:

Not for lack of trying, I don't think. Seemed to me that Buck would often send starters out in the 6th inning to coax a few more batters out of them. I remember it backfiring often.

It would take a lot of work to determine if Buck did that more often than other managers.   We certainly know that the O’s ranked 11th of 15 in IP/start in the AL (Tampa was last by far due to their “opener” gambit).     

I think it’s really challenging to pull a starter who is doing pretty well after 5 innings, when you have a rotation of guys who are often being pulled in innings 2-4 for poor performance.    That’s asking a lot of your bullpen.    

[Pheasants]

4 starters doing 5 innings each.  3 relievers doing 2 innings per game. (Can come back faster than the starters because less innings.) 3 finishers to do the 8th and 9th, and a long man for when the starter is bombed in the first three innings.  11 man staff; of course the Orioles might need 3-4 long men.

[Just Regular]

IP/start probably suffers a fast extinction as a good enough, easy to use stat if openers proliferate.  To get a true measure of Tampa's bullpen burden last year, you probably have to swap out all the Stanek/Romo opens and switch in the IP figures for Yarbrough, Chirinos, etc.

I get that the LI is lower, but proponents say one of the benefits is to attack the top of the lineup.  Stanek is Armando Benitez and Yarbrough is Mark Hendrickson, so for Betts or Judge or Vlad, the opponent is essentially choreographing a day in the box of fast-slow-slow-fast.  Or maybe Darren O'Day weird instead of the last fast.

[Luke-OH]

1 minute ago, OrioleDog said:

IP/start probably suffers a fast extinction as a good enough, easy to use stat if openers proliferate.  To get a true measure of Tampa's bullpen burden last year, you probably have to swap out all the Stanek/Romo opens and switch in the IP figures for Yarbrough, Chirinos, etc.

I get that the LI is lower, but proponents say one of the benefits is to attack the top of the lineup.  Stanek is Armando Benitez and Yarbrough is Mark Hendrickson, so for Betts or Judge or Vlad, the opponent is essentially choreographing a day in the box of fast-slow-slow-fast.  Or maybe Darren O'Day weird instead of the last fast.

It'd be fun to find/develop a rubber-armed knuckleball guy to pitch the first inning of every game. 

[interloper]

Are openers usually used for 1 inning or more than 1? I admit I am not well-read on the openers thing.

[Finisher]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

That's a big change from Buck trying to get the starter to go 6 innings to save the pen and giving up a bunch of run in the fifth.

Yep. Buck had an absolute hard on for leaving in the starter to try to get an extra out and it backfired over and over and over and over and

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Finisher said:

Yep. Buck had an absolute hard on for leaving in the starter to try to get an extra out and it backfired over and over and over and over and

It also didn't backfire, but those times aren't near as memorable.

[Frobby]

41 minutes ago, interloper said:

Are openers usually used for 1 inning or more than 1? I admit I am not well-read on the openers thing.

It just depends.   By my count, Tampa used a starter for one inning or less 25 times last year, and 1.1 - 2 innings 35 times.    It’s not necessarily the case that all those short starts were planned.   

[mdbdotcom]

It's the 5th and 6th time through the order that really concerns me.

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

It's the 5th and 6th time through the order that really concerns me.

Truer words were never spoken!

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Luke-OH said:

It'd be fun to find/develop a rubber-armed knuckleball guy to pitch the first inning of every game. 

It would be glorious to have someone break the record for starts in a season.  Which currently sits at 75 by Will White (1879) and Pud Galvin (1883).  Of course they did it in seasons of less than 100 games...

What I also want to see is someone designated The Winner, who only comes in to relieve the opener when his team is tied or ahead.  The opener is ineligible for the win, so The Winner gets it.  Maybe 40-50 times in a season if you work it right.