Calling Elias incompetent is unfair

[weams]

9 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

It was calculated in their payroll figure. They received money back on those deals and its was posted earlier that they are spending what they should be...not overspending saved loot from losing on purpose 

I'm sure that they buried as much as possible to hide it from Uncle Sam.

Can we find it then and report the fraud to the IRS tip line? 

[Roll Tide]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Like I said, the other teams have been helping pay for them.

Now if they sign Cole in the offseason...

I think the proof will be the annual payroll number. That will tell you if/when they overspend and reach back into the coffers for saved money.

[Roll Tide]

3 minutes ago, weams said:

Can we find it then and report the fraud to the IRS tip line? 

Go for it

All business do it with the loopholes 

Depreciation, declining sales, hiding the cash (which is easy to do and hard to prove). Increasing the cost of materials....production...etc

[weams]

2 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Go for it

All business do it with the loopholes 

Depreciation, declining sales, hiding the cash (which is easy to do and hard to prove). Increasing the cost of materials....production...etc

Well that is all fraud. It's a crime.  I don't support that. 

[Ohfan67]

23 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

No ...I called him a Buffoon!

I haven't seen him doing anything so far that couldn't have been done by the previous group.

He made no international signings of note, he got nothing done at the deadline except Cashner for scraps, and now Villar for nothing!

Call me unimpressed!

And you were chastising posters to stay classy?

[Roll Tide]

26 minutes ago, weams said:

Well that is all fraud. It's a crime.  I don't support that. 

 

The loopholes are put there to allow manipulation. 

I agree with your position 

Thinking it doesn't happen is naive.

[Roll Tide]

15 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

And you were chastising posters to stay classy?

You offer nothing to the conversation but a few snarky 1 liners and negative Rep.  But please continue if it makes you happy.

[weams]

Let's dial it back a notch. @Tony-OH dialed in on the name calling of team officials. I'll remind that posters are off limits there as well. 

[Ohfan67]

15 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

You offer nothing to the conversation but a few snarky 1 liners and negative Rep.  But please continue if it makes you happy.

My question was not snarky. You called Elias a buffoon. You expect your ideal of civility and “class” from others online, yet are disrespectful and insulting towards Elias and reply aggressively to other posters when your hyperbole is called out. If you are going to “lecture” others about online civility, then you should have the decency and integrity to behave accordingly. 
 

  

[weams]

44 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

My question was not snarky. You called Elias a buffoon. You expect your ideal of civility and “class” from others online, yet are disrespectful and insulting towards Elias and reply aggressively to other posters when your hyperbole is called out. If you are going to “lecture” others about online civility, then you should have the decency and integrity to behave accordingly. 
 

  

Ok please stop. I asked.

[Sessh]

I do like Villar. I think he brings a lot of excitement to our team and was one of the only guys supplying that last year and thought we should have bought out his arb year last season with perhaps an extra year. However, I can understand how 10M might be a little steep. On the other hand, any little things you can do to keep at least some excitement and try to keep some players fans enjoy watching on the team even at a little extra expense seems like a worthwhile exception to make. It's not that Villar is going to make us win significantly more games or bring us out of the doldrums faster. It's more that it's not really a good look IMO.

What bothers me is allowing him to get away for nothing. I would rather sign him and see if an opportunity presents itself to trade him this season. Sure, it's risky, but considering our current situation, the risk is minimal. If he doesn't perform well, so what? We're not going anywhere anyway. If he does, maybe we can get something for him in a trade down the line or maybe we decide to keep him around after next year. Regardless, I don't think letting a guy coming off a 4 WAR season after a 2.7 the year before go for nothing is a good look or a good move.

This is really the first time I've felt loud and clear that we're actively racing to the bottom. It's one thing to be ok with not having a good team during a rebuild while avoiding the course of action that got us 1998-2012, but it's quite another to allow your best player to go for nothing over a few million dollars. It just feels so blatant and I'm not sure how I feel about it really. It's 5M and we've already shed a great deal of salary, so not like it would hurt and it would at least show the fans that they care a little bit about a player that has become a fan favorite to some degree. I still think it's worth it. If it backfires, so what? How much harm will really be done to the rebuild? My guess is none.

Also, I disagree with any sort of name calling or personal attacks against Elias or anyone at this point. It's too early to make such judgments. This is Elias' first go in this position, so I'm willing to cut him some slack. That doesn't change my feelings that it's a bad move to make right now.

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

Go for it

All business do it with the loopholes 

Depreciation, declining sales, hiding the cash (which is easy to do and hard to prove). Increasing the cost of materials....production...etc

Just want to point out that the operating income reported by Forbes excludes any deductions for depreciation, interest payments or taxes.    

I have no idea where Forbes gets its numbers or how reliable they are.    But there’s nothing else available publicly, so it’s the best we’ve got.    
 

 

[Tx Oriole]

On 11/28/2019 at 8:58 AM, wildcard said:

We knew from the time Mike Elias was hired that he would follow the Houston model.   That means the team would be torn down and rebuilt.   We knew it would take years.   Living through the losing as an O's fan would be and is hard.   But the World Champion is the focus.

There are going to be moves along the way that some of us maybe most of us don't agree with.  Moves that hurt the term in the short term.    Some ask  "Why should I spend money to see the team?"   Well maybe you shouldn't if watching a rebuilding is not your thing.

Elias focus  is building a team for 2022 and beyond.   He may have a core forming.   Hays, Santander and Diaz in the outfield.   Rutschman at catcher.    Mountcastle  1B/DH.  Rodriguez, DL Hall and Means as starters and Harvey in the pen.  Its a beginning.  There are a lot of spots to fill.

Only one of those players were acquired by Elias.  Rutschman.   He inherited the rest.   So what has Elias done in his first year?   He made major steps toward building as first class player development organization.    Its hard to remember when the O's had so many pitchers having good season in the minors.   He did it by hiring managers and coaches.  The O's never had a position called development coach in my memory.   He made strides in developing  an Analytics Department.   He began to build a international scouting department.     Most of these things will not help the 2020 major league team.  But they will help the O's future and they take money to build.

So we are probably going to see another season of losing in 2020.   But the O's will have  high draft choices in 2020 and 2021 which will help build the core of players that lead the O's to a World Champions.   There will be spending on players down the line.  Houston didn't win the World Series by not spending money.  Neither will the O's.

So IMO opinion its fine to disagree with moves.   Its fine to be frustrated with going through the losing.   But Mike Elias is not incompetent and should not be called that.  He is following the plan that he believes will take the O's to a World Championship. And that is not incompetence.

 

I dont think it’s all on Elias. I think it’s ownership that’s the main problem. If the sons are like Peter then this organization for loads of trouble. IMO 

[tntoriole]

I still think ME could have kept Villar and spun the wheel on something trade wise developing between now and the 2020 deadline.  But...it is what it is.  Sometimes rebuilders want to clear out everything...ok.    Either way, it is a miniscule deal in the overall process.  

[WarehouseChatter]

I just have to sit back and laugh at some of this (not Elias and the O’s, but some of the posters on the board).  Anyone who says he’s done nothing doesn’t deserve to be a fan.  If you can’t see and feel the organization changes, you’re nuts.  This club was years (if not a decade) behind others and “fans” are ready to jump ship after 1 move?  In my opinion, go for it.  Jump ship.  I’ll still be here when we compete again.