Dean Kremer 2021

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

Any idea why he was pulled after 5 innings tonight? He seemed to only make two mistakes. Am I missing something?

Pitch count of 77. Can’t be too careful with these guys, like porcelain dolls. 

 

[Camden_yardbird]

8 hours ago, Il BuonO said:

Pitch count of 77. Can’t be too careful with these guys, like porcelain dolls. 

 

There is a lot of evidence that shows that significant increases to pitch loads leads to injury.  And no one pitched a lot last year.

[Can_of_corn]

16 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

There is a lot of evidence that shows that significant increases to pitch loads leads to injury.  And no one pitched a lot last year.

Share please.

 

[Aglets]

32 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Share please.

 

https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/mediaroom/pressreleaselisting/baseballpitching

 

Looking forward to you no longer hounding people for data on this since you have access now.

[jdwilde1]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Share please.

 

A quick internet search brings up plenty of studies, but nothing I saw was overly persuasive that pitch counts (especially the 100 mark) significantly increase the risk of arm injury.  
There are plenty of opposing opinions too.  Here is a link to one guy’s opinion.  He is adamant that pitch count is bogus.  
 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pitch-counts-really-protect-arms-bill-peterson

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Aglets said:

https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/mediaroom/pressreleaselisting/baseballpitching

 

Looking forward to you no longer hounding people for data on this since you have access now.

Posting share please constituents hounding?

Thanks for the link tho.  I'll peruse it.

 

Edit-  Sweet, high school students.  That seems super useful.

Quote

“We see a lot of kids who didn’t prepare in the off-season and, when their workload goes through the roof, they’re not prepared for the demand of throwing.”

 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, jdwilde1 said:

A quick internet search brings up plenty of studies, but nothing I saw was overly persuasive that pitch counts (especially the 100 mark) significantly increase the risk of arm injury.  
There are plenty of opposing opinions too.  Here is a link to one guy’s opinion.  He is adamant that pitch count is bogus.  
 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pitch-counts-really-protect-arms-bill-peterson

Thanks.

I've looked before and found the same.  Conflicting information. 

I'm not suggesting that limiting workload isn't useful, particularly with younger players.  But I do think you hit a point of diminishing returns with caution and that teams are often overly cautious.

For instance I've personally seen no evidence that the lighter workload last season should have any impact on workloads this season. 

[Aglets]

Yeah they found a clear link between pitch counts and negative outcomes.  It makes perfect sense if you think about it and you understand that overhand pitching (especially at the force of an MLB player) is an unnatural human motion.

Interestingly enough, the physics of the interactions between muscles, joints, ligaments, etc work very similarly in 17-18 year olds as 22-29 year olds.  I would even hypothesize that it’s the same in older individuals.

[Aglets]

Also, I don’t disagree that many times teams are over cautious with this kinda thing.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Aglets said:

Yeah they found a clear link between pitch counts and negative outcomes.  It makes perfect sense if you think about it and you understand that overhand pitching (especially at the force of an MLB player) is an unnatural human motion.

Interestingly enough, the physics of the interactions between muscles, joints, ligaments, etc work very similarly in 17-18 year olds as 22-29 year olds.  I would even hypothesize that it’s the same in older individuals.

The specific article you linked to is discussing HS students that they think were improperly prepared for their workload.

That article, at least, doesn't seem overly useful in this discussion.

[jdwilde1]

2 minutes ago, Aglets said:

https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/mediaroom/pressreleaselisting/baseballpitching

 

Looking forward to you no longer hounding people for data on this since you have access now.

I briefly looked at this study and it does not come close to establishing  that increased pitch counts for professional pitchers lead to more arm injuries. Rather, it tracked high school pitchers and found that a lot of high schoolers get injured at the beginning of the season after not preparing to throw in the off-season.  Injuries peaked at about 4 weeks into the season.  In fact, the study showed that injuries declined as the season went on.  

[Aglets]

There are other multiple studies available, but yeah, it appears that most research is being done in youth baseball.  I don’t know if that is for cost related reasons or MLBPA issues or whatever.   I will link them later if you guys are open to accepting them.  If they will be dismissed out of hand for age reasons then I will save my time.

I just don’t see how one can think that mechanics of pitching would impact high school or middle school arms one way, but adult arms in some other way.  This appears to be the best data currently available and it seems pretty conclusive.

And again.....OBVIOUSLY the more stress you put on a shoulder or elbow or whatever the more likely it is to be injured.  I don’t even comprehend what the opposing argument would be.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Aglets said:

There are other multiple studies available, but yeah, it appears that most research is being done in youth baseball.  I don’t know if that is for cost related reasons or MLBPA issues or whatever.   I will link them later if you guys are open to accepting them.  If they will be dismissed out of hand for age reasons then I will save my time.

I just don’t see how one can think that mechanics of pitching would impact high school or middle school arms one way, but adult arms in some other way.  This appears to be the best data currently available and it seems pretty conclusive.

And again.....OBVIOUSLY the more stress you put on a shoulder or elbow or whatever the more likely it is to be injured.  I don’t even comprehend what the opposing argument would be.

The opposing argument is when do you limit them?

I think the vast majority of us don't think guys should be out there throwing 300 innings with 200 pitch innings like they did in the old days.

But if there isn't any evidence that last year's lower workload has changed the acceptable maximum workload this year why start limiting guys in May?  You aren't going to eliminate injuries, you might not even reduce them.  You might just move the injuries from your starters to your relievers.

 

[Just Regular]

I think the Verducci Effect was a helpful simplification, and the +debunked Google search first finds a couple BP stories from 2013.    I think the high speed cameras, etc. since then...2013 might as well between 1973.    As a baseball nut it'd be great to hear the Real Why, but I think the Real Why is probably some of the frontier of R&D, and accept clubs will be as opaque as they can on scenarios like this.

Further down the rabbit hole, I wonder how transparent Matt Blood/the Club are with John Means/the Player about this sort of thing, or is it like "it puts the lotion on its skin/it doesn't pitch again until Thursday"?    I'm sure Holt and/or Hyde convey a basic message of "We're giving you a few extra days, hoss", but a rookie like Kremer and a pitch-count hook is even smaller beer.

[jdwilde1]

12 minutes ago, Aglets said:

There are other multiple studies available, but yeah, it appears that most research is being done in youth baseball.  I don’t know if that is for cost related reasons or MLBPA issues or whatever.   I will link them later if you guys are open to accepting them.  If they will be dismissed out of hand for age reasons then I will save my time.

I just don’t see how one can think that mechanics of pitching would impact high school or middle school arms one way, but adult arms in some other way.  This appears to be the best data currently available and it seems pretty conclusive.

And again.....OBVIOUSLY the more stress you put on a shoulder or elbow or whatever the more likely it is to be injured.  I don’t even comprehend what the opposing argument would be.

I am not arguing against the general premise that the more one throws the more opportunity that there is for injury. Nor am I arguing that a high schooler’s arm is some how structurally different than someone in there 20s or 30s.  Rather, I am just pointing out that there is inconclusive data on whether throwing 130 pitches in a game, as opposed to 100 pitches, (for a conditioned professional) significantly increases the risk of major arm injury.  
 

I do know that starting pitchers’ game day routines vary greatly, including the number/intensity of throws the make outside of the game total.  For example, Mike Flanagan told a story about when he was pitching coach that he once tracked every throw made by a starting pitcher (long catch, warm up, etc.).  By the 6th inning he was at 250.  Also, it wasn’t that long ago that pitchers were throwing 300 innings and making 40 starts a season.  Then, it was 250 innings and 35 starts.  Now,  most pitchers will not sniff 200 innings.  

So, the question is, has the reduced workload decreased major arm injuries (i.e. requiring season ending surgery)?  I do not know the answer, but it does not seem like there are less arm injuries.  Maybe there is a conclusive study that shows guys in Palmer’s era, or Clemens era, or Randy Johnson’s era were suffering major injuries much more frequently.  However, I have not seen it.