Hyde can’t manage this team

[wildcard]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol

Your basis for Mullins wasn’t anything set in reality. You were throwing sh** against the wall and seeing if it would stick.  If you do that with enough things, something will. 
 

And I never said Holt wasn’t anything special.  I said we don’t have any evidence that he is as good as you think he is or that he is some wizard who magically makes players better.

But beyond that, you talked about how we are winning with him here.  Well, we lost a boatload of games and then did well vs Cle and Minnesota, winning 4 of 6.  In those 6 games, the pitching staff gave up 26 runs.  That’s not bad (not exactly world beating either)but they won because they scored 38 runs.  There was one really well pitched game, where they won 3-1.
 

Now, as I asked in the last post, what did Holt say to the offensive players to get them to hit better?

Probably nothing. And as pitching coach I would not expect him to.   So you do think Holt is something special as a pitching coach?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Probably nothing. And as pitching coach I would not expect him to.   So you do think Holt is something special as a pitching coach?

So then why do you think we started winning just because Holt came back even though the pitching wasn’t great?

 

And I don’t know what Holt is yet.  There isn’t enough to go by to know.we hear great things and I assume those aren’t lies but whether he can translate his great ideas to the pitchers and make them successful is unknown.

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

So then why do you think we started winning just because Holt came back even though the pitching wasn’t great?

 

And I don’t know what Holt is yet.  There isn’t enough to go by to know.we hear great things and I assume those aren’t lies but whether he can translate his great ideas to the pitchers and make them successful is unknown.

I'll wait you out.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I'll wait you out.

You didn’t answer the first question. 

[Frobby]

I don’t think we know if Holt is anything special as a major league pitching coach.  But even assuming he is, I certainly don’t think that having any pitching coach miss a few weeks in the middle of a season should cause a two-run differential in ERA during his absence.   That’s mostly other factors IMO.

[Philip]

A leader doesn’t need words to inspire, although they can certainly help. Remember the leaders in your own past who terrified you or inspired you or loved you with a look, and pulled your best out of you by his mere presence.

Its difficult to use orchestra examples to people who are increasingly distant from great music, but I have been in orchestras where the violin section, or the cello section, even the bass section, followed their leader exactly, precisely, to the smallest motion, just from the presence and body language of the leader. It is an astonishing thing to see, and very rare. Those are real people, and it’s worth mentioning that the Bass section leader I mention was loathed by his section and they made little secret of it, but they obeyed him and played at an elite level.

Same for conductors. Conductors these days are hired for lots of reasons and musical excellence is rarely a top priority. But when we get one of those Leaders, the orchestra sits up and does amazing things.

Whatever that trait is, that ability to motivate, to draw the best out of the people around him, EITHER Hyde does not have it, or the players he has are so incompetent that it wouldn’t matter if he did.

[wildcard]

18 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t think we know if Holt is anything special as a major league pitching coach.   I certainly don’t think that having a pitching coach miss a few weeks should cause a two-run differential in ERA during his absence.   That’s mostly other factors IMO.

Well, I've watched him.   First, the pitchers trust Holt.   They listen to him and follow what he says.   I think they missed that when he was gone.

He seems to time his visits to the mound well and the pitchers responds to what he wants them to do.  I did not see the same results when Holmes made a mound visit.

Great pitching coaches know how to get a pitcher to adjust his mechanics.   They also know how to talk to them to get them to perform better.  Its a rare skill.  Its teaching.  Bullpen sessions between starts.  Its giving confidence to pitchers about what works and what does not.   

Seeing what Holt has done with the minors, with Means and with others on the major league staff, I think he is really good.   This team has been pretty close to a .500 team with him.  Pretty close to .000 without him.

Are there other factors on whether the team wins or loses? Sure.  But pitching is such a big part of the game.

You say you have not seem enough as a major league pitching coach.  But you have read and seen interviews with him for over two years.   You know Elias brought him from the Astros to run the rebuild of the pitching.  You have seen the results and  if you have listens you have heard the players talk about what he does and how he helps them.

 

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Well, I've watched him.   First, the pitchers trust Holt.   They listen to him and follow what he says.   I think they missed that when he was gone.

He seems to time his visits to the mound well and the pitchers responds to what he wants them to do.  I did not see the same results when Holmes made a mound visit.

Great pitching coaches know how to get a pitcher to adjust his mechanics.   They also know how to talk to them to get them to perform better.  Its a rare skill.  Its teaching.  Bullpen sessions between starts.  Its giving confidence to pitchers about what works and what does not.   

Seeing what Holt has done with the minors, with Means and with others on the major league staff, I think he is really good.   This team has been pretty close to a .500 team with him.  Pretty close to .000 without him.

Are there other factors on whether the team wins or loses? Sure.  But pitching is such a big part of the game.

You say you have not seem enough as a major league pitching coach.  But you have read and seen interviews with him for over two years.   You know Elias brought him from the Astros to run the rebuild of the pitching.  You have seen the results and  if you have listens you have heard the players talk about what he does and how he helps them.

 

How has he done with Kremer, Akin, Zimmerman and Lowther?  Why hasn’t there been much progression there?  
 

Why is Scott still struggling with his command?  Why is Lopez walking over 4 per 9 IP?  Why does Harvey suck again?

Holt did a ton of virtual coaching with these guys.  Do they only listen to him when he is physically in the same room as them?  

[Tony-OH]

I don't think any of us know how good a "motivator" Hyde is but every player speaks glowingly about playing for him, including Mancini. 

We're always going to have disagreements from time to time with manager's decisions. Sometimes we aren't going to have all of the information on why he made a certain move. I haven't seen Hyde make any awful, head scratching decisions, though I question why certain guys were given so many chances while others very little. 

Saying that, I don't know how much he's told who to play on his roster because it always been described as a collaborative approach by Hyde with Mike and Sig being part. Because of that, it's hard to know whether or not it's Hyde's decision to try and make Rio Ruiz a second baseman when they have 1000s of PAs in the minors and over a full season of major league PAs to know that Ruiz is not going to be anything more than a replacement level hitter at best.

At the end of the day though, I don't think we can judge Hyde on whether he can be a successful manager with good talent until he's given that team. 

Hyde was given a tough task to lead this team through a rebuild and the team still plays hard. Heck, even in the disastrous losing streak i never saw the team look like they quit. That's a credit to him honestly.

[Sports Guy]

32 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't think any of us know how good a "motivator" Hyde is but every player speaks glowingly about playing for him, including Mancini. 

We're always going to have disagreements from time to time with manager's decisions. Sometimes we aren't going to have all of the information on why he made a certain move. I haven't seen Hyde make any awful, head scratching decisions, though I question why certain guys were given so many chances while others very little. 

Saying that, I don't know how much he's told who to play on his roster because it always been described as a collaborative approach by Hyde with Mike and Sig being part. Because of that, it's hard to know whether or not it's Hyde's decision to try and make Rio Ruiz a second baseman when they have 1000s of PAs in the minors and over a full season of major league PAs to know that Ruiz is not going to be anything more than a replacement level hitter at best.

At the end of the day though, I don't think we can judge Hyde on whether he can be a successful manager with good talent until he's given that team. 

Hyde was given a tough task to lead this team through a rebuild and the team still plays hard. Heck, even in the disastrous losing streak i never saw the team look like they quit. That's a credit to him honestly.

Well said.  I’m not even considering getting rid of Hyde until at least July of 2022, assuming a lot of the young talent we will count on long term is up here.  Let’s see how he coaches them, how they respond to him, etc…That is when an actual intelligent decision can be made.

[Moose Milligan]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

How has he done with Kremer, Akin, Zimmerman and Lowther?  Why hasn’t there been much progression there?  
 

Why is Scott still struggling with his command?  Why is Lopez walking over 4 per 9 IP?  Why does Harvey suck again?

Holt did a ton of virtual coaching with these guys.  Do they only listen to him when he is physically in the same room as them?  

 Yeah @wildcard these are questions I’d like to be answered. If Holt is a true wizard why are these guys struggling?  Kremer is a bag of suck, especially. Tanner Scott is Rick Vaughn Jr. 

I’m not saying Holt is bad, I’m not saying he’s fantastic either. But it’s not like the majority of the arms we have up right now are improving under his tutelage. 

[Tony-OH]

20 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

 Yeah @wildcard these are questions I’d like to be answered. If Holt is a true wizard why are these guys struggling?  Kremer is a bag of suck, especially. Tanner Scott is Rick Vaughn Jr. 

I’m not saying Holt is bad, I’m not saying he’s fantastic either. But it’s not like the majority of the arms we have up right now are improving under his tutelage. 

Just like to point out that Scott has been very good over his last 6 games. Kremer has been bad no doubt and has the stuff to be much better so that is a question mark. Kremer seems to have fallen in love with cutter, but that cutter has been hammered when he doesn't locate it well. If his cutter could become more of a slider like Bradish was able to do, that would help him a lot. 

With a bad change up, Kremer may end up in relief if he can't get more movement on that cutter or at least command it better.

[Explosivo]

Look at when they struggled. Holt hasn’t been around for a good chunk of time. The pitchers listed regressing just so happens to coincide with his absence. How about Lopez? He has gotten better since Holt got back on the team. Look at our arms in the minors as well and realize that Holt is in charge down there as well. They are succeeding against lesser talent. I’d imagine that it’s important when dealing with minute details that lead to success that you’d get better instruction when the guy is there. In the majors, small mistakes will kill ya. In the minors, you can get away with it a little more. We are seeing progression in many more ways than the guys you cherry picked. SG, you really do amaze me with your takes. Are you just a contrarian or the antithesis of wisdom? You don’t see to ever have a good grasp on reality. Anyway, my point is, Holt is the real deal. It’s why he has taken over nearly every facet of pitcher development in both the minor and major league ball clubs. Be thankful to have him and we will see more positive gains as we move forward to 2022. 
 

On a side note, I’m glad that whatever happened in his life to pull him away from the club is over and I pray that whatever it was went well and his life outside of baseball is ok. That was very strange and with it the mystery as to why it occurred.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Explosivo

[Philip]

56 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

 

I don't think any of us know how could a "motivator" Hyde is but every player speaks glowingly about playing for him, including Mancini. 

 

I haven’t read the rest of your comment, which I’m sure is excellent, but I have to jump in here and say, “my gosh what else are they going to say?”

A guy saying something nice about his boss is one of the oldest clichés in human history, it means nothing.

[Explosivo]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

I haven’t read the rest of your comment, which I’m sure is excellent, but I have to jump in here and say, “my gosh what else are they going to say?”

A guy saying something nice about his boss is one of the oldest clichés in human history, it means nothing.

Agreed. What are they going to say? Would you ever risk saying something negative publicly about a guy who decides whether or not you are going to play?