Don't waste the Adley, Grayson and DL years.

[LTO's]

115 losses. Worst farm system in baseball. Decade plus of zero meaningful involvement in a player acquisition phase that accounts for 30% of all big leaguers including the very best players on the planet. Less than 2 season's worth of games later and people are complaining they aren't signing the Joc Pedersons and Mike Minors of the world to hope to lose 95 instead of 100. Makes absolutely 0 sense. Be thankful intelligent people are now running things and don't share these ideas. About half of their top 20 prospects will be on the big league roster next year along with guys like Mullins, Hays, Means, Mountcastle, Scott and Harvey. I'd rather watch them. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, LTO's said:

115 losses. Worst farm system in baseball. Decade plus of zero meaningful involvement in a player acquisition phase that accounts for 30% of all big leaguers including the very best players on the planet. Less than 2 season's worth of games later and people are complaining they aren't signing the Joc Pedersons and Mike Minors of the world to hope to lose 95 instead of 100. Makes absolutely 0 sense. Be thankful intelligent people are now running things and don't share these ideas. About half of their top 20 prospects will be on the big league roster next year along with guys like Mullins, Hays, Means, Mountcastle, Scott and Harvey. I'd rather watch them. 

 

I don't think even Kieth Law ranked the O's farm system last in 2018.  I'd be willing to bet that no one else did.

I think someone is engaging in some revisionist history.

[Sports Guy]

47 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Straw Man....

For the first bold part....The Orioles have literally gone a quarter century without investing in foreign players.  They aren't peanuts behind, they are a freaking generation behind.  I don't know how many millions you think the current ML team should be spending, but if it is intelligent, it is less than what is being invested for the first time ever in infrastructure.

For the second...The Orioles used to be one of those organizations.  They are not.  And they have tried several variations that look like what you propose now...It simply hasn't worked.  It's not that it can't be done, its that it can't be done until you build something that can be sustained.  You simply want to skip the "peanuts" because peanut butter in your world, comes from a choice.  Well Choosy Mothers choose JIf is a great saying, but only because they have been making peanut butter since before you were born. The Orioles...?  Skippy Reduced Fat.  

Thankfully the Orioles are changing.  And soon, it will be time to judge how that has gone.  But not putting a better team on the field for you this year is not a valid criticism.  IMHO

 

 

Your first point has zero to do with what I said.  I’m aware how far behind they are.  But that has zero to do with the actual cost to do those things.  Building a facility, etc..costs nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Your second point makes no sense for what I’m saying.  All I’m saying is that you can win the majors while also building a better organization.  You can’t argue against that.  That’s a proven fact.  
 

And that’s fine…some people are fine with them putting a pathetic product on the field.  I was fine with them tanking at first.  A lot of people aren’t fine with that.  That’s fine.  People look at it differently.  I think people have been brainwashed into thinking you need to lose for 4 or 5 years before you can show signs of life again.  That’s an absurd opinion imo but hey, it’s your opinion if you have it..just as people will say it’s absurd of me to be ok with tanking.  

You are acting like I’m not supporting the organization.  15 years ago I was the loudest voice on this site about them having to do that and people were drinking the kool aid that they were doing that.  So this is exactly what I want..but you can do this and still win.  The only thing you gain by tanking is a higher draft pick and draft pool (most of which goes to that higher pick).  Nothing else is gained by a prolonged tank job.  In the beginning, you trade off assets, you get cheaper and younger.  But again, those are things you can do while winning.  So all of this is for some higher picks, that’s it.  That’s not worth it to me at this point.  It was for a year or 2 but not anymore.

[Sports Guy]

39 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Some of us are "going along with it" because we lived through 14 consecutive years where the team was TRYING to win each year, sometimes spending quite a bit of money to do so, and they couldn't even break .500.   At one point, while claiming they were trying to win, they tied the major league record by getting worse for 5 consecutive years.   (And the team that set that record originally started with a .600 team and then got worse 5 straight years; the Orioles managed to start with a sub-.500 team and get worse for 6 straight years, an almost impossible to believe feat).

That experience left us willing to try something different.   Where we build from the ground up, strengthen the farm system, and the player development system.   And that we don't spend money on major league payroll until it can literally make the difference in contending or not.   I am willing not to spend a dime to increase this year's team, or last year's team, from 65 to 75 wins, because losing is losing.   So yes, I am "going along with it".  

Now am I concerned that they won't spend when spending can make a real difference?   Damn right I am, and I have said so many times on here.   If this is all part of a scheme to cut payroll and pump profits into Angelos' pockets until they sell the team, and that they don't intend to spend when it matters -- I will be extremely disappointed and upset.   And every year, every month, brings us closer and closer to the point where there is enough talent reaching the major league level to think about contending.   I will be holding my breath to see if they actually spend money on payroll then.   Do they extend young players long before they can become free agents?   Once they have a team with only one or two holes, do they spend on free agents to fill those gaps?   Do they tender arbitration to guys who are good if they don't have someone as good or better waiting in the wings?

I don't think we have reached any of those inflection points yet.   Some of them are creeping closer.   But so far, I don't think that their stinginess has led them to pass on anyone who would be a useful part of a contending Oriole team.   

All of this is great…but you can do all of this and still win.  That’s the point.  

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

I don't think even Kieth Law ranked the O's farm system last in 2018.  I'd be willing to bet that no one else did.

I think someone is engaging in some revisionist history.

That whole post was absolute garbage but consider the source.

I mean, when you are just going to lie and make stuff up, why even engage to begin with?  

[maybenxtyr]

At this point I would be happy if they just brought up some of the second level prospects to replace Wilkerson, Franco and Harvey. 

[LTO's]

32 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

That whole post was absolute garbage but consider the source.

I mean, when you are just going to lie and make stuff up, why even engage to begin with?  

Consider this, you and @Can_of_corn were predictably both wrong and continue to be. You just don't engage when anyone actually challenges you. At the time Elias took over they were dead last according to Keith Law. Ranked 28th by Fangraphs. The only cracked top the 25 in BA after the trade deadline in 2018 based on DD's trades which turned out to be horrible. 

https://www.camdenchat.com/2019/2/4/18210497/mlb-farm-system-rankings-keith-law-orioles-2019

Again, I'll ask: who are the players they should've signed this offseason and at what price? This should be extremely easy now because you have the benefit of hindsight. Last time I asked you didn't even give an answer worth responding to. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, LTO's said:

Consider this, you and @Can_of_corn were predictably both wrong and continue to be. You just don't engage when anyone actually challenges you. At the time Elias took over they were dead last according to Keith Law. Ranked 28th by Fangraphs. The only cracked top the 25 in BA after the trade deadline in 2018 based on DD's trades which turned out to be horrible. 

https://www.camdenchat.com/2019/2/4/18210497/mlb-farm-system-rankings-keith-law-orioles-2019

Again, I'll ask: who are the players they should've signed this offseason and at what price? This should be extremely easy now because you have the benefit of hindsight. Last time I asked you didn't even give an answer worth responding to. 

I was wrong?  I allowed for KLaw who has admitted penalizing the O's in his rankings before.   With 30 teams in the league 28 isn't last.

Folks have a tendency to downplay what the Orioles had in the system when Elias got here.

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Consider this, you and @Can_of_corn were predictably both wrong and continue to be. You just don't engage when anyone actually challenges you. At the time Elias took over they were dead last according to Keith Law. Ranked 28th by Fangraphs. The only cracked top the 25 in BA after the trade deadline in 2018 based on DD's trades which turned out to be horrible. 

https://www.camdenchat.com/2019/2/4/18210497/mlb-farm-system-rankings-keith-law-orioles-2019

Again, I'll ask: who are the players they should've signed this offseason and at what price? This should be extremely easy now because you have the benefit of hindsight. Last time I asked you didn't even give an answer worth responding to. 

Lol…the next time you challenge me will be the first time.

And no, I don’t feel the need to answer your extremely broad question.  There are countless ways that the team could have been improved and been closer to a 500 team.  
 

The Orioles fielded a team full of AAAA guys and vets that aren’t good and on the back end of their careers.  Just replacing those guys with better, more competent MLers makes a huge difference.  There was the FA market and the trade market, all things they could have taken advantage of and decided not to.  That was their choice.  I’m simply saying I think they made the wrong choice.

I wanted IF improvements, 1-2 real SP and a back end of the pen arm.  Had they brought that on, I think the team is a lot better.

I will also say that I would have Adley up by now as well.  
 

I will also say that part of my plan to win close to 80 games or so would be predicated on the young guys we have on the team currently and ones that should be here soon are developing well and that the vets/young guys we were relying on would be good.  
 

Some of that hasn’t happened.  Would it have with better pieces around them?  Who knows.  But between some poor play and/or injuries, things may not have gone according to plan.  But that’s in hindsight.  At the moment, they could have done a far better job of putting a better team on the field while not sacrificing the future in any way.  Sure, you may dealt a few guys in that 10-20 range on your prospect list but let’s face it, those players are pretty replaceable if you are building things correctly.

[LTO's]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Just replacing those guys with better, more competent MLers makes a huge difference.  There was the FA market and the trade market, all things they could have taken advantage of and decided not to.

This is so easy. Name some players and their price and how many wins they would add to the team. The fact that you can't name any is why you are on a message board right now. And why on earth would they be trading prospects for ML players? That makes no sense. Actually, I'm willing to be convinced. Give one realistic trade scenario. 

[LTO's]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I was wrong?  I allowed for KLaw who has admitted penalizing the O's in his rankings before.   With 30 teams in the league 28 isn't last.

Folks have a tendency to downplay what the Orioles had in the system when Elias got here.

Yes you were. You said that not even Keith Law ranked them dead last when he quite literally did. Regardless, when you just had the worst season in franchise history and are bereft of ML talent, if you're not even a top 25 system you are in horrible shape. That's obvious to anyone except you apparently. The farm system was bad relative to the league at that time. As obvious now as it was back then. 

[Sports Guy]

Names:  Matz, Hand, Simien, Schoop, Wood, Musgrove..few names they could have considered that were moved.

Several teams were crying poor me, so take advantage of that.  The reds talked about moving guys.  Could you have gotten something done there?  Colorado traded Arenado And didn’t even get a ton back.  Why not be involved?  Or, look at other options from them.  Cubs were looking to move Bryant…what would it have taken?  Could you have had him for a few guys outside of your top 10?  No one was biting on him And his salary was high for this year.  
 

I mentioned Adames in the offseason. 

There are always targets out there.  There are always ways to improve if you want to.

Also, I wanted to trade guys like Santander this offseason.  We don’t know what was there but maybe they could have dealt him for ML help at other areas.  It’s doubtful Elias looked for ML help when he shopped Santander or anyone else. 
 

Also, do you have anyone that is valued highly but maybe you could part because of roster issues and just long term issues about the player?  Say a guy like Mountcastle.  Could he have been a central piece in a trade for a guy like German Marquez?  Who knows.  It’s possible but obviously we will never know.

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Yes you were. You said that not even Keith Law ranked them dead last when he quite literally did. Regardless, when you just had the worst season in franchise history and are bereft of ML talent, if you're not even a top 25 system you are in horrible shape. That's obvious to anyone except you apparently. The farm system was bad relative to the league at that time. As obvious now as it was back then. 

Yes that’s true…but the point CoC made that is true is that a lot of guys that we look at now as potential future pieces were here before Elias got here.    That’s very true.

[Mr. Chewbacca Jr.]

On 6/15/2021 at 12:57 PM, Frobby said:

Realistically, I do not think the team can contend in 2022.   Finishing around .500 is possible.   Under those circumstances, I would not want to hold on to Mancini just to have him for one more season.  I’d rather trade him for players who can help us later.   The other players wildcard mentions are under control for a longer period of time so I don’t think we need to trade any of them unless we are really bowled over with an offer.   

I really like Mancini but it’s just not worth it to hold onto him if all we are getting is one season after this one.   
 

I think the bolded is key. A Mancini trade actually needs to return an impact player - not somebody who is going to be a fringe player that could be found relatively easily elsewhere. I don't think Mancini would be terribly expensive to re-sign. So, I wouldn't necessarily look at him as just a one-year-left guy.

[Mr. Chewbacca Jr.]

41 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I was wrong?  I allowed for KLaw who has admitted penalizing the O's in his rankings before.   With 30 teams in the league 28 isn't last.

Folks have a tendency to downplay what the Orioles had in the system when Elias got here.

The farm system and drafting under DD is super underrated. I don't understand all the hate directed toward them. I guess people don't realize GrayRod and DL Hall were drafted by that regime?