Rutschman/Mussina

[spiritof66]

I have a slightly different take on retired numbers. I think the Orioles should have more of them, and that election to the Cooperstown Hall of Fame should not be a requirement. Players who were accomplished longtime Orioles and who were and are beloved by Oriole fans should be eligible, and it's a lot better to do those things while the honoree is around to enjoy it. Boog and Adam Jones come to mind immediately.

I don't have strong feelings about Mussina, or probably better to say I'm ambivalent. I prefer to place principal blame for his departure on the stupidity, stubbornness and difficulty making hard decisions on the part of Peter Angelos because it fits my narrative of his disastrous ownership of the Orioles (and my prediction of that disaster pretty much immediately upon his group's purchase of the team, though I don't think I imagined how bad things would get). But I've sure read and heard plenty of stuff about Mike Mussina that differentiate his relationship with the Orioles from the guys with retired numbers.

It's obvious to me from dozens of conversations over the years about Messina, on this site and elsewhere, that there are plenty of Orioles fans, ranging from insiders like Tony to casual fans, who harbor negative feelings about Mussina and about the team honoring him. Under those circumstances, anyone -- even an Angelos -- can see that according to Mussina the highest honor that a team can bestow on a former player would be sheer idiocy. End of story so far as retiring #35 is concerned. I'd like to see the Orioles move on with the retirement of the numbers of a few more players when the occasion would be a celebration for fans who are really hungry for something to celebrate, rather than an argument about who is to blame for making Mike Mussina a NYY.

[spiritof66]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

So let’s say we eventually have some other Hall of Famer who plays most or all of his career here but the O’s never win a WS while he’s here.   Would you not retire his number because of that?

I’m fine with not retiring Mussina’s number, but it’s not his fault the O’s never won a WS with him.   The guy was absolutely brilliant in the 1997 playoffs but the team couldn’t pull it off, for completely unrelated reasons.   

I don't see why winning a World Series, or being part of a team that came close, should be a requirement. The retirement of a number should be, IMO, a way to recognize guys with extraordinary (usually including lengthy) careers as Orioles players who meant a lot to the team, to its fans and to Baltimore. The guys whose numbers have been retired all meet those criteria. So do Boog Powell and Adam Jones, to take what are for me easy cases, among others.

 

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

So let’s say we eventually have some other Hall of Famer who plays most or all of his career here but the O’s never win a WS while he’s here.   Would you not retire his number because of that?

I’m fine with not retiring Mussina’s number, but it’s not his fault the O’s never won a WS with him.   The guy was absolutely brilliant in the 1997 playoffs but the team couldn’t pull it off, for completely unrelated reasons.   

For me the bar should include a WS.  If a player never gets there he should not be included now or in the future. Don't water down the retiring of a number.

Luck plays a role in every players career.   Palmer was lucky to play with the teammates he did.  Mussina is lucky that the ball that hit in the head didn't do more damage. (Thank God).   You can say a lot of players were not and will not be lucky in th future.    Doesn't mean they should have their # retired with an asterisk.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, wildcard said:

For me the bar should include a WS.  If a player never gets there he should not be included now or in the future. Don't water down the retiring of a number.

Luck plays a role in every players career.   Palmer was lucky to play with the teammates he did.  Mussina is lucky that the ball that hit in the head didn't do more damage. (Thank God).   You can say a lot of players were not and will not be lucky in th future.    Doesn't mean they should have their # retired with an asterisk.

Well, I started to do a list of all the players on other teams who had their numbers retired but never won a World Series with that team (or in many cases, ever), but I stopped because it would be a very long list.   Guys like Ted Williams.  I realize different teams can have different standards and the Orioles were fortunate enough to win 3 WS in an 18-year stretch, but to me it’s a bit much to automatically say nobody without a WS ring can get his number retired.   

[MijiT88]

For me personally, I have never understood the hate some people have for Mussina, not bashing on anyone. Granted I was a kid watching him and absolutely loved watching him to the point where I emulated his little dip thing he did from the stretch in little league. I was sad he left but it is what it is and I still watched him pitch for the yankees and glad he is in the HOF. I have never thought about his number being retired but I wouldn't be upset either way. Maybe it is because of my age and how I grew up in the FA era and expect people to leave that it never made a difference to me but he is still my all time favorite pitcher.

[MijiT88]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well, I started to do a list of all the players on other teams who had their numbers retired but never won a World Series with that team (or in many cases, ever), but I stopped because it would be a very long list.   Guys like Ted Williams.  I realize different teams can have different standards and the Orioles were fortunate enough to win 3 WS in an 18-year stretch, but to me it’s a bit much to automatically say nobody without a WS ring can get his number retired.   

I have always thought number retiring was few and far between and saved for very special players, that may be because I am an Oriole and Packer fan...Both teams that historically have very few retired numbers. Only the best of the best on their storied teams had their numbers retired. Meanwhile no in my 30's I see how other teams have retired numbers. A lot of them not being anywhere near as strict as either of my favorite teams have been.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, MijiT88 said:

I have always thought number retiring was few and far between and saved for very special players, that may be because I am an Oriole and Packer fan...Both teams that historically have very few retired numbers. Only the best of the best on their storied teams had their numbers retired. Meanwhile no in my 30's I see how other teams have retired numbers. A lot of them not being anywhere near as strict as either of my favorite teams have been.

It’s fine with me to be strict.  I don’t think the Orioles should have retired any numbers other than the ones they have.  I just don’t like having one automatic litmus test like winning a WS.   What if the next Cal Ripken plays here but never wins a WS?    I think the standard needs to be more flexible, depending on the greatness of the player, the duration of his career in Baltimore, and with postseason accolades as a factor but not a set in stone as a “must have.”   Also, public opinion plays a role.  

[TonySoprano]

58 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The guy was absolutely brilliant in the 1997 playoffs but the team couldn’t pull it off, for completely unrelated reasons.   

 

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

 

Painful.   I attended that game.   Super depressing.   And Mussina couldn’t have been better.   

[Gentile4]

A WS ring or appearance is not required IMO, but prolonged greatness is. Earl, Brooks, Cal, Palmer, and Eddie all meet that requirement. I understand the reasoning, but I still struggle a bit with Frank given he only played six seasons in Baltimore. However, I struggle even more with the comment that Palmer is "probably" the best pitcher in Oriole history. Probably?

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Gentile4 said:

A WS ring or appearance is not required IMO, but prolonged greatness is. Earl, Brooks, Cal, Palmer, and Eddie all meet that requirement. I understand the reasoning, but I still struggle a bit with Frank given he only played six seasons in Baltimore. However, I struggle even more with the comment that Palmer is "probably" the best pitcher in Oriole history. Probably?

The point is that Mussina was equally good - he just didn’t spend his whole career with the Orioles.  Even Palmer has said on broadcasts that Mussina was as good or better than he was.

Personally, I’d give Palmer the nod, but it’s not a no brainer.   Mussina was worth 82.8 rWAR, 81.2 fWAR; Palmer was worth 68.5 rWAR, 56.6 fWAR.   By either method, Mussina was significantly better.   

Now of course if you are only looking at what the player did for the Orioles, that’s another story.  
 

[rudyrooster]

List of Orioles whom have had their jersey numbers retired is a short one, as well it should be.

#4  Earl Weaver.     

#5  Brooks Robinson

#8  Cal Ripken Jr.     

#20  Frank Robinson 

#22  Jim Palmer

#33   Eddie Murray 

Interesting that all 5 of these Orioles earned World Series rings and all 5 have statues at the ballpark.           

[Gentile4]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Personally, I’d give Palmer the nod, but it’s not a no brainer.   Mussina was worth 82.8 rWAR, 81.2 fWAR; Palmer was worth 68.5 rWAR, 56.6 fWAR.   By either method, Mussina was significantly better.   

 

Of course, there are the three CYA's to consider and the fact that he was second twice, third once and fifth twice in the voting. I don't recall Mussina ever being considered the best pitcher in the league.

[WillyM]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

It occurs to me that 35 has to easily be the winningest pitcher uniform number for the O’s.    You’ve got Mussina at 147 and Cuellar at 143, Cabrera at 48, Bunker at 44, Brach at 27 — that’s 409 right there and I’m leaving out a lot of other guys.   22 can’t possibly compete despite Palmer having 269 by himself, since nobody’s worn it since 1984.    

Given Cuellar's accomplishments with the Orioles, I can't see how they could retire number 35 in honor of Mussina alone.  Don't forget, Cuellar won 20 or more games for the Orioles in four separate seasons.  Mussina never did so.

If they were to decide to retire it in honor of Cuellar and Mussina jointly, I'd be OK with that.  The Yankees retired number 8 in honor of both Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra.

I'd also be OK with waiting for Rutschman to have a career as good as Mussina's and Cuellar's, and then retiring the number in honor of all three of them.

[ChipTait]

39 minutes ago, rudyrooster said:

List of Orioles whom have had their jersey numbers retired is a short one, as well it should be.

#4  Earl Weaver.     

#5  Brooks Robinson

#8  Cal Ripken Jr.     

#20  Frank Robinson 

#22  Jim Palmer

#33   Eddie Murray 

Interesting that all 5 of these Orioles earned World Series rings and all 5 have statues at the ballpark.           

My wife likes to play the Lotto.  I told her that if those six numbers were to hit on the same night, it would be the biggest split pot in history, because I bet there are dozens of people in Baltimore who play them every week!