I'm already over this offseason.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Brnovich and Peek had “good” years though. I believe they were on the just missed list here. I’d say overall we’ve done really well with our trades with the Angels. 

Do you think the return for Bundy was "good"?  Do you think he's got much value in any of his trades?

[Aristotelian]

30 minutes ago, Porky said:

I think the narrative that Elias walked into some kind of wasteland is hyperbole. The farm system was far better than advertised and the major league roster had respectable veterans on it. 

Ownership wanted to do a tanking strategy and they hired Elias because he had the resumé to do it from his time with the Astros. If the Angelos sons wanted to go with a different strategy, they would have hired someone else. Elias is here to tank, plain and simple.

Don't forget the Chris Davis contract. We had a few players in the system but certainly not enough to build a competitive team around. We had few tradeable assets and got nothing back from Manny. Grayson was definitely a great pick but far away from the majors. In no way shape or form was this a situation where someone could easily field a competitive team right away. 

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Don't forget the Chris Davis contract. We had a few players in the system but certainly not enough to build a competitive team around. We had few tradeable assets and got nothing back from Manny. Grayson was definitely a great pick but far away from the majors. In no way shape or form was this a situation where someone could easily field a competitive team right away. 

The Chris Davis contract didn’t prevent them from doing anything.

[interloper]

28 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you think the return for Bundy was "good"?  Do you think he's got much value in any of his trades?

I'd say it was good, especially considering Bundy cratering in his first full season since the trade and coming down with another shoulder injury. Even before that it was a fair trade for an iffy starter. At the very least we have a potential rotation piece in Bradish and a potential bullpen piece in Brnovich. 

[Frobby]

37 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The bottom line is that the cupboard wasn’t bare and he was able to walk into the highest draft pool and highest picks available.  
 

I agree with Porky that the narrative surrounding Elias coming into the system is a bit overstated.

The way people talk about it, you would think the Orioles had nothing here.  That’s not true.

It is a bit overstated by some, particularly with respect to the farm system.   But when you look at the major league team, the farm system and the lack of a viable international program, it’s very hard to find a worse situation than the O’s were in when Elias got here.   Even you have said you think Elias basically has done what you would have done prior to this offseason.   The real debate is whether the foundation is now at the point where adding talented veterans is appropriate.   I see that as a separate question from what has happened through this season.  (Obviously, individual past moves can always be questioned.)

[Can_of_corn]

15 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Don't forget the Chris Davis contract. We had a few players in the system but certainly not enough to build a competitive team around. We had few tradeable assets and got nothing back from Manny. Grayson was definitely a great pick but far away from the majors. In no way shape or form was this a situation where someone could easily field a competitive team right away. 

Diaz was well regarded at the time.  The fact that the Orioles haven't been able to develop him doesn't change that fact.

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Diaz was well regarded at the time.  The fact that the Orioles haven't been able to develop him doesn't change that fact.

Come on man. Lol. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, interloper said:

I'd say it was good, especially considering Bundy cratering in his first full season since the trade and coming down with another shoulder injury. Even before that it was a fair trade for an iffy starter. At the very least we have a potential rotation piece in Bradish and a potential bullpen piece in Brnovich. 

Yea, I'm going to disagree.  How he pitched in 2021 isn't super relevant.  I think you should have been able to do more than a package headlined by Bradish.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, interloper said:

Come on man. Lol. 

What?

If the O's get credit for developing guys we should be able to mention guys whose prospect status has dropped since the O's acquired them.

[justD]

34 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The real debate is whether the foundation is now at the point where adding talented veterans is appropriate.   I see that as a separate question from what has happened through this season.  

Interesting article from 2013 Fangraphs, where the overall complaint was whether the Astros would spend money again.  Or ever.  

[Frobby]

39 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

What?

If the O's get credit for developing guys we should be able to mention guys whose prospect status has dropped since the O's acquired them.

Can’t argue with that.   Hard to say if the Elias team bears any blame for his lack of progress, but it’s happened on their watch.   Overall, they seem to be doing a good job developing hitters and nobody wins them all.  

[Sports Guy]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It is a bit overstated by some, particularly with respect to the farm system.   But when you look at the major league team, the farm system and the lack of a viable international program, it’s very hard to find a worse situation than the O’s were in when Elias got here.   Even you have said you think Elias basically has done what you would have done prior to this offseason.   The real debate is whether the foundation is now at the point where adding talented veterans is appropriate.   I see that as a separate question from what has happened through this season.  (Obviously, individual past moves can always be questioned.)

Well, I think he could and should have been more aggressive acquiring players and using the payroll flexibility he has, particularly after 2020 and how some teams were trying to get rid of contracts.

But overall, yes I think he had done what he should have done in many respects.

Still, while it wasn’t s great situation, it wasn’t as bad as many make it out to be.

[Just Regular]

Crane has proven as good as his word, though HOU > BAL and I presume personal wealth wise he has a good edge on the Angelos' situation, so I limit my hopes to Top 12 as 2014-2018 Orioles were.

The peak Adley teams should still get plenty good even if they only attain ~85-90% of the Buck/Duquette peak payrolls for the best few years, assuming low eight figures will always stay in R&D, Latin America, etc. in contrast to Duquette's choices for the end of line Machado teams.

ASTROS PAYROLLS
Year	Opening Day 26-man	Year End 40-man	CB Tax 40-man
2021	$187,648,656 ( 5)	$                    (  )	$206,980,710 ( 3)
2020	$ 76,971,626 ( 3)	$  81,422,510 ( 4)	$224,319,004 ( 2)
2019	$158,053,000 ( 9)	$169,831,987 (	$203,750,149 ( 5)
2018	$160,393,900 ( 9)	$163,824,115 ( 9)	$187,386,304 ( 7)
2017	$124,343,900 (17)	$134,076,102 (18)	$140,475,350 (19)
2016	$ 96,893,700 (21)	$103,697,860 (21)	$124,363,133 (18)
2015	$ 72,464,200 (29)	$ 82,395,216 (27)	$ 95,778,605 (29)
2014	$ 50,485,800 (29)	$ 54,689,189 (29)	$ 64,319,960 (30)
2013	$ 26,105,600 (30)	$ 29,270,160 (30)	$ 39,210,733 (30)

 

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

What?

If the O's get credit for developing guys we should be able to mention guys whose prospect status has dropped since the O's acquired them.

And if people are going to say the system was better than expected (e.g. Mullins and Means) then you also have to acknowledge how has ended up worse than expected (Kremer and Diaz). We're not talking about how it was ranked but what talent was actually there. Overall I think it is fair to say it was one of the worst systems before Elias took over. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

And if people are going to say the system was better than expected (e.g. Mullins and Means) then you also have to acknowledge how has ended up worse than expected (Kremer and Diaz). We're not talking about how it was ranked but what talent was actually there. Overall I think it is fair to say it was one of the worst systems before Elias took over. 

Depends?  Bottom half?  Sure.  Bottom third?  Maybe.  Bottom two or three?  I don't think so.