MLB Lockout Thread

[waroriole]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

But the players refused to be mediated.

Mediation occurs after both sides have made a good faith effort to resolve the dispute. It shouldn’t be requested as a public relations ploy. 

[forphase1]

54 minutes ago, waroriole said:

Mediation occurs after both sides have made a good faith effort to resolve the dispute. It shouldn’t be requested as a public relations ploy. 

...or declined as a public relations ploy.

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

...or declined as a public relations ploy.

I'm not sure how declining arbitration is in itself a public relations ploy.

What part of the public were they trying to court?

I can see it as a move to help galvanize their base but public relations?

[forphase1]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not sure how declining arbitration is in itself a public relations ploy.

What part of the public were they trying to court?

I can see it as a move to help galvanize their base but public relations?

Well, apparently it worked for that part of the public that includes waroriole, who is using the MLBPA talking points about not needing mediation until both sides make a good faith effort to resolve the dispute.    Every move by both sides is calculated, not only to help galvanize their base but to drum up public support.  So yeah, I certainly believe that declining mediation (it's not arbitration really) was also a public relations ploy, hence the tweets and posts by the players and union about why they turned it down.  Otherwise just say no and keep your mouth shut about it.  

[waroriole]

4 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Well, apparently it worked for that part of the public that includes waroriole, who is using the MLBPA talking points about not needing mediation until both sides make a good faith effort to resolve the dispute.    Every move by both sides is calculated, not only to help galvanize their base but to drum up public support.  So yeah, I certainly believe that declining mediation (it's not arbitration really) was also a public relations ploy, hence the tweets and posts by the players and union about why they turned it down.  Otherwise just say no and keep your mouth shut about it.  

That doesn’t make any sense. All they said was we’re declining because the owners haven’t made a good faith effort to negotiate yet. You know it’s ok to just admit you were wrong about something instead of trying some twisted logic to justify it. 

[forphase1]

I'm happy to admit I'm wrong when it happens, but that isn't the case here.  If you think the players rejecting mediation was not as much of a calculated move on their part as the owners offering the mediation was on their part, then I don't know what to tell you.  Both sides are maneuvering the way they see as best, and public perception is a large facet of that maneuvering.  If you think the union solely declined mediation without considering how they could spin it for the public, then I've got some great ocean front property here in WV to sell ya.  

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Exactly. There's blame on both sides to go around. Again, neither side gives two hoots about the fans. 

Of course they don't.  I mean, why should they?  The exchange between fan and player and owner is purely transactional.  

I pay a few bucks to go to Camden Yards to see the Orioles probably lose.  I buy an overpriced (they are overpriced, no one can tell me otherwise) sandwich from Boog's or one of those crab + mac and cheese hot dogs from Stuggy's (not overpriced).  I cheer for the home team, I go home, end of transaction.  

On a similar note, I pay for a streaming service that gets me MASN for like an extra 15 bucks a month on top of what I'd normally pay.  I don't buy any of the gear because I'm of a certain age and speaking for myself, I find team gear on adults to be goofy, except a hat.  My dollar amount invested in the Orioles is low.  

As I said, it is transactional.  I wouldn't pitch a fit if Tom Cruise and Paramount Pictures had an argument that would delay the next Mission Impossible movie.  Do Tom Cruise and Paramount Pictures care about their fans?  Of course they do, but only at 15 bucks a pop or however much a movie ticket costs these days.  

So they can miss a chunk of games this year.  Hell, cancel the season for all I care because there's life outside of being an Orioles fan and watching this miserable franchise.  There's more rewarding ways to spend time instead of watching whatever Quad-A guy they've brought up to get sacrificed to the Sox or Yankees.  

Sure, I'll miss it if they don't play any games but there's a lot of other stuff to do.  More enriching, rewarding stuff than watching this team lose 100 games.  I think part of the reason I'm invested in the team to this degree is this board and without this I probably wouldn't pay as much attention as I do. 

However, habits are hard to break, so if and when they do come back, I'll tune in.  But it won't be because I think they value me anywhere past my wallet.  That's the only degree that they care.  They don't care about anything else, which I'm comfortable with.

[Tony-OH]

22 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Well, apparently it worked for that part of the public that includes waroriole, who is using the MLBPA talking points about not needing mediation until both sides make a good faith effort to resolve the dispute.    Every move by both sides is calculated, not only to help galvanize their base but to drum up public support.  So yeah, I certainly believe that declining mediation (it's not arbitration really) was also a public relations ploy, hence the tweets and posts by the players and union about why they turned it down.  Otherwise just say no and keep your mouth shut about it.  

As I've said before, the majority of Americans are easily manipulated through PR people, press releases, media and politician speak. If that's not clear by now to some people, then it probably means they are those people easily manipulated.

Obviously both sides are trying to work their minions in the press to push their talking points. Fans already have a connection to players vs owners, so it's an uphill challenge for the owners to get good PR. The Fangraphs poll is a perfect example.

The only thing that surprises me is how aggressive the pro player people are as if they don't see the greediness and comments coming from their $40 million a year spokesman. But then I remind myself how easily people can be manipulated into literally seeing things with their own eyes or hearing things with their own ears yet they can be told be the media that it's different. 

The most accurate statement here about this whole situation as I see it is there are no good guys in this situation. Basically as fans we have to wait to see how Billionaires and Millionaires carve up the Billions of dollars of revenue while they figure out how to drain the fan of the last dollar in their pockets.

 

[waroriole]

5 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

As I've said before, the majority of Americans are easily manipulated through PR people, press releases, media and politician speak. If that's not clear by now to some people, then it probably means they are those people easily manipulated.

Obviously both sides are trying to work their minions in the press to push their talking points. Fans already have a connection to players vs owners, so it's an uphill challenge for the owners to get good PR. The Fangraphs poll is a perfect example.

The only thing that surprises me is how aggressive the pro player people are as if they don't see the greediness and comments coming from their $40 million a year spokesman. But then I remind myself how easily people can be manipulated into literally seeing things with their own eyes or hearing things with their own ears yet they can be told be the media that it's different. 

The most accurate statement here about this whole situation as I see it is there are no good guys in this situation. Basically as fans we have to wait to see how Billionaires and Millionaires carve up the Billions of dollars of revenue while they figure out how to drain the fan of the last dollar in their pockets.

 

Just because someone is annoyed by the negotiating tactics (if you can even call it negotiating) of the owners doesn’t mean they think the players are above reproach. Both sides suck but owners suck a little worse. It’s hard to argue against the player’s perspective when salaries have gone down while revenues increased. 

[SteveA]

2 hours ago, SpOkane said:

My proposal: Include MLBPA in League revenue sharing. They get 1/31 of the cut, probably over $200 Million. MLB & MLBPA negotiate how it gets divvied up in the following buckets:

• prearb players
• MILB players (salary & housing),
• support services and increased pensions for retired players (especially those who missed out on big paydays), and
• community outreach programs. 

MLBPA then decides on the mechanism that pays the prearb players. Could also include language that prearb salaries will not be used as base in arb hearings so MLBPA cannot be accused/tempted to inflate high end salaries to esclate arb prices. Empowers players to decide prearb worth and leavs owners out of it. 

I was also toying with the idea of a $25,000 "debut" bonus bucket for players who get called up to the 26-man roster. Some guys just get one day's pay and the story they made it to the Show, but also get lifetime access to MLB benefits.

Each team loses $6 million + in revenue sharing.  Seems like a drop in the bucket to them to get rid of some headaches and focus on making $.

Be also nice to see them think of fans-ticket price freeze over the course of this CBA.

I like the concept.  It gives both sides incentive to make the game as popular with the fans as possible, because increased revenue will automatically help both sides.  Of course it will also lead to implementing new revenue streams (advertising on uniforms, in game online betting, etc) but guess what, that stuff is going to come whether we want it or not.

I don't know if the owners will go for it, considering that their offer of $ to bump the salaries of pre-arb guys was $10 million total (players were asking for 7 figures), and their raise in the minimum salary barely matched inflation.

[LookinUp]

 

 

[Sports Guy]

 

[Sports Guy]

 

[MCO'sFan]

45 minutes ago, waroriole said:

Just because someone is annoyed by the negotiating tactics (if you can even call it negotiating) of the owners doesn’t mean they think the players are above reproach. Both sides suck but owners suck a little worse. It’s hard to argue against the player’s perspective when salaries have gone down while revenues increased. 

Perhaps, just perhaps the salaries were artificially high and the market corrected itself? Perhaps, GM's and owners have realized that there is no value in giving 30 something players 200 million guaranteed. What is the famous Chris Davis quote? Something like "in free agency, you get paid for what you've done more than what you will do. That to me speaks volume to the players perspective. They can't argue that the young player is underpaid and then argue at the same time that FA should get more than the value of their current contract. Again, I am for neither side. Anything the owners give away will be made up for by changing the fans more and then we will be back in the same boat. Players will argue that salaries have flattened and revenue is up. I don't understand the need to take sides. In the end, I decide where my time and money goes. 

[MCO'sFan]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

Seems like the owners have moved on some things and the players have too. That's how negotiations work. So is saying the other side is not negotiating in good faith. I don't see how either side can make that claim accurately.