Snell/Hader package

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

It’s the same game.  How many times have we seen a dominant pitcher fall flat on his face in the playoffs?  Probably more than the surprise guy making a name for himself.  Future HOFer Kershaw comes to mind.  There was also that time a team of scrubs beat Verlander, Price, and Scherzer.  Give me some BP arms and I’ll go to battle with the SP we have.    

First of all, cool profile pic! I assume that you played or have some sort of experience with "the beautiful game".

Now back to this topic, obviously it is the same sport, but the level of competition and pressure is different in the postseason when the season is in essence on the line.

We don't know how our guys will handle October baseball as most will be experiencing it for the very first time. And yes some uber successful regular season players struggle in October like Kershaw, all of that is true and inarguable.

Sounds like you are more comfortable and confident rolling with our starters into October than I. That's cool. We just have a big difference of opinion there.

However, I hope we are doing nothing to compare ourselves to the 2014 Orioles. Nothing about this team is comparable to that one. And what they did is in no way relevant to what this team is doing. The only similarity is the same uniforms. No players, mangers, coaches, front office personnel from now were around back then. As a matter of fact, some of our players were children (maybe in elementary or middle school).

I would have for anyone associated with any decision making to say something to the effect, "yeah remember that one single time, like almost 10 years ago, when we beat the odds and swept a team that had better starting pitchers than ours by using a comeback in game 1, a monumental comeback in game 2 with a bases clearing infielder from Delmon Young, and getting lucky in game 3 with the wind blowing in negating some of the power hitters from the Tigers in Detroit? Yeah, let's see if we can duplicate all of that".

I would hate to have our reasoning be based in anything that looks like accepting long odds and being "the little engine that could". We have WAY TOO MUCH organizational talent to accept being underdogs. We have among the most prospect capital in the sport, with an already flourishing young roster.

I hope our aim is A LOT higher than the 2014 Orioles. My hopes are the Astros of recent memory or the current Atlanta Braves. You know teams that have won championships.

[Bemorewins]

12 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Yes.  As a professional if you treat one game different than the next and stray from your routine, you will fail.  

If your answer is yes to my question, then I completely understand why you don't feel that we need to upgrade the team.

[emmett16]

9 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

First of all, cool profile pic! I assume that you played or have some sort of experience with "the beautiful game".

Now back to this topic, obviously it is the same sport, but the level of competition and pressure is different in the postseason when the season is in essence on the line.

We don't know how our guys will handle October baseball as most will be experiencing it for the very first time. And yes some uber successful regular season players struggle in October like Kershaw, all of that is true and inarguable.

Sounds like you are more comfortable and confident rolling with our starters into October than I. That's cool. We just have a big difference of opinion there.

However, I hope we are doing nothing to compare ourselves to the 2014 Orioles. Nothing about this team is comparable to that one. And what they did is in no way relevant to what this team is doing. The only similarity is the same uniforms. No players, mangers, coaches, front office personnel from now were around back then. As a matter of fact, some of our players were children (maybe in elementary or middle school).

I would have for anyone associated with any decision making to say something to the effect, "yeah remember that one single time, like almost 10 years ago, when we beat the odds and swept a team that had better starting pitchers than ours by using a comeback in game 1, a monumental comeback in game 2 with a bases clearing infielder from Delmon Young, and getting lucky in game 3 with the wind blowing in negating some of the power hitters from the Tigers in Detroit? Yeah, let's see if we can duplicate all of that".

I would hate to have our reasoning be based in anything that looks like accepting long odds and being "the little engine that could". We have WAY TOO MUCH organizational talent to accept being underdogs. We have among the most prospect capital in the sport, with an already flourishing young roster.

I hope our aim is A LOT higher than the 2014 Orioles. My hopes are the Astros of recent memory or the current Atlanta Braves. You know teams that have won championships.

Not the best of times for Los Che on or off the field.

 

 It’s the same game.  It’s a coin flip once you get in.   I honestly don’t think the players feel any additional or added pressure and you never know who will step up or fold.  Could be a rookie or could be a vet with 10 years of playoff experience.  like our top 3 guys and havnt discounted GRod.  I’d like 2 strong BP arms to shorten game to 4-5 innings.  I’d be happy if we could go Bradish, Wells, #3 (we have some choice here).  Our guys are having good years and performing, I don’t see them as the little engine that could but rather solid MLB pitchers having success at the highest level. 

[Bemorewins]

8 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Not the best of times for Los Che on or off the field.

 

 It’s the same game.  It’s a coin flip once you get in.   I honestly don’t think the players feel any additional or added pressure and you never know who will step up or fold.  Could be a rookie or could be a vet with 10 years of playoff experience.  like our top 3 guys and havnt discounted GRod.  I’d like 2 strong BP arms to shorten game to 4-5 innings.  I’d be happy if we could go Bradish, Wells, #3 (we have some choice here).  Our guys are having good years and performing, I don’t see them as the little engine that could but rather solid MLB pitchers having success at the highest level. 

I'm not sure how familiar that you are with our American League projected opposition in the postseason, but I think it is VERY safe to say that all of our projected/possible opponents have better starting pitching than us. Like every single one of them. That is not a reality that I am comfortable living with and I don't think the organization has to either. We have an overabundance of positional player talent throughout the organization. There is no good reason to me that we can't take some of our excess and turn that into a player or two who help even the talent balance and thus increase our odds for success.

I like Tyler Wells or Kyle Bradish and want them to be successful (as I do ALL players that don the orange and black). But I have a VERY HARD TIME believing that many would take them over Garret Cole, Shane McClanahan, Joe Ryan, Sonny Gray (this season), Framber Valdez, Cristian Javier, Kevin Gausman, Nathan Evoldi (this season), or Jon Gray. These are the type of talents that we will be up against with our season on the line. I know who I would want if given a choice and that's just trying to be objectively fair. 

[sportsfan8703]

24 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Garret Cole, Shane McClanahan, Joe Ryan, Sonny Gray (this season), Framber Valdez, Cristian Javier, Kevin Gausman, Nathan Evoldi (this season), or Jon Gray. These are the type of talents that we will be up against with our season on the line. I know who I would want if given a choice and that's just trying to be objectively fair. 

How many of them will even be there and be healthy?  

[HakunaSakata]

33 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I'm not sure how familiar that you are with our American League projected opposition in the postseason, but I think it is VERY safe to say that all of our projected/possible opponents have better starting pitching than us. Like every single one of them. That is not a reality that I am comfortable living with and I don't think the organization has to either. We have an overabundance of positional player talent throughout the organization. There is no good reason to me that we can't take some of our excess and turn that into a player or two who help even the talent balance and thus increase our odds for success.

I like Tyler Wells or Kyle Bradish and want them to be successful (as I do ALL players that don the orange and black). But I have a VERY HARD TIME believing that many would take them over Garret Cole, Shane McClanahan, Joe Ryan, Sonny Gray (this season), Framber Valdez, Cristian Javier, Kevin Gausman, Nathan Evoldi (this season), or Jon Gray. These are the type of talents that we will be up against with our season on the line. I know who I would want if given a choice and that's just trying to be objectively fair. 

I don't think half the pitchers you listed are "aces" or intimidating opponents. Cole, Gausman, McClanahan and possibly Ryan are aces. The others, not so much. 

Sonny Gray - Has an xERA of 3.84 and doesn't go deep into games. 

Nathan Eovaldi - Career 3.7ish ERA. Solid pitcher, when he's healthy, but not an ace. 

Jon Gray - Has an xERA of 4.17 (regression's coming) and isn't an ace. 

Cristian Javier - All kinds of red flags surrounding him this season, but the lack of swing and misses is probably the biggest.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

How many of them will even be there and be healthy?  

I have no knowledge of that because I do not possess a crystal ball nor do I have access to a time machine.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

I don't think half the pitchers you listed are "aces" or intimidating opponents. Cole, Gausman, McClanahan and possibly Ryan are aces. The others, not so much. 

Sonny Gray - Has an xERA of 3.84 and doesn't go deep into games. 

Nathan Eovaldi - Career 3.7ish ERA. Solid pitcher, when he's healthy, but not an ace. 

Jon Gray - Has an xERA of 4.17 (regression's coming) and isn't an ace. 

Cristian Javier - All kinds of red flags surrounding him this season, but the lack of swing and misses is probably the biggest.

Gotcha. Solid points well taken.

[Tryptamine]

24 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

I don't think half the pitchers you listed are "aces" or intimidating opponents. Cole, Gausman, McClanahan and possibly Ryan are aces. The others, not so much. 

Sonny Gray - Has an xERA of 3.84 and doesn't go deep into games. 

Nathan Eovaldi - Career 3.7ish ERA. Solid pitcher, when he's healthy, but not an ace. 

Jon Gray - Has an xERA of 4.17 (regression's coming) and isn't an ace. 

Cristian Javier - All kinds of red flags surrounding him this season, but the lack of swing and misses is probably the biggest.

By that same standard,  Wells has .193 babip, SIERA of 3.74, xFIP of 4.10 and FIP of 4.55. Obviously due to inducing weak contact he's going to be a consistent FIP/xFIP beater, but no one maintains a .193 babip and almost no one maintains an 85.1 LOB%.

[HandsomeQuack]

I've been checking in on this thread now and then an I don't understand what is going on.

The pitching staff has room for improvement and could be bolstered at the deadline.

Better pitchers = higher chances of winning playoff games.

The playoffs are hard because the teams are good.

Mediocre players can shine and good players can wilt under the bright lights and SSSs of October baseball.

Who disagrees with any of that? The question was what would be a reasonable package for Snell and Hader. Complaining ad nauseum about the shortcomings of the current staff is completely pointless, even by weekday mid-afternoon message board standards. Both Snell and Hader could be good gets, in my opinion, depending on the cost. I wouldn't want to trade a Piece (capital "P") for a two-month rental but Norby, Prieto, etc. should all be on the table.

[Can_of_corn]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I want to understand what you are saying? Are you making the point that the intensity, pressure and stress of playing those teams in the regular season is the exact same as playing them in the post season?

I want you to show me evidence that the "intensity, pressure and stress" of postseason baseball has a measurable impact on player performance.

I don't think the majority of players wilt under pressure.

[Can_of_corn]

2 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

Even if we ignore the postseason factor, facing superior competition has a huge impact.

 

 

Sure, it is more difficult to play well against, and beat, more talented opposition.

Not arguing that at all.

 

We just appear to have someone saying this is true because of course it's true despite the lack of evidence to prove it.

And I don't agree that we should just assume things.

Rick Dempsey won a WS MVP on a team that had Eddie Murray on it.

Which one of those two is known for being "clutch"?

Edited June 28, 2023 by Can_of_corn

[Bemorewins]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I want you to show me evidence that the "intensity, pressure and stress" of postseason baseball has a measurable impact on player performance.

I don't think the majority of players wilt under pressure.

I’m going to choose to decline your request at this time, as I don’t see the merit in “proving” anything to you.

We have difference of opinion on this matter and I’m okay with that.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Bemorewins said:

I’m going to choose to decline your request at this time, as I don’t see the merit in “proving” anything to you.

We have difference of opinion on this matter and I’m okay with that.

Then I would appreciate it if you didn't make inflammatory comments about other posters' opinions.

 

 

 

[Bemorewins]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Then I would appreciate it if you didn't make inflammatory comments about other posters' opinions.

 

 

 

Point taken.