Do you trust Elias at the Deadline?

[Bemorewins]

7 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

I don't think Elias would stay here if he thought he couldn't get the money to do the job.  

After the Chris Davis fiasco, I think Angelos is a bit tighter.  

But look at the clubs that aren't doing great that spent boodles.  

Check out Stanton's OPS.  He's in Frazier territory.  What's Chris Sales doing these days.  

We are 29th in payroll and a really good starting pitcher and a bullpen arm away from being a legit contender. Those things are probably going to cost. I can't imagine if finances were not a restrictive matter why we would have signed Gibson and not Bassitt? Or why we would have signed Frazier and not an actual good player?

From everything that you have heard from John Angelos (press conferences/quotes), what gives you the impression that he is even interested in the Orioles competing for championships or that he is willing to spend any significant money on the team?

From the VERY FIRST GAME of the season (after the great game by Adley), he talked as if signing young players to extension was not a real interest/possibility. He seemed more passionate about talking about community development and his trip/partnership with Governor Moore than ANYTHING baseball related. 

And I don't agree that there are no good players to be found as Free Agents. You have to be careful and wise. But I can't see a realistic road to a World Series paved with no significant expenditures/investments. 

For the Stantons and Sales that you point out there are Marcus Siemens, Corey Seagers, Garret Coles, Freddie Freemans, Masataka Yoshias, etc that work out. FA is risky no doubt, but it is not totally useless. 

Btw, I think Sale was acquired in a trade from the White Sox and then extended by the Red Sox.

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, bluedog said:

This.

I would be stunned if Elias chose to join the O's without first getting confirmation that ownership would spend to support a winning team. I wouldn't be surprised if his contract includes a commitment by management to increase payroll to a specified level at his request.

Well, ownership has made exactly ZERO commitments and investments up until this point under Elias' tenure. So all we have are those data points to rely on.

[accinfo]

19 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

After the Chris Davis fiasco, I think Angelos is a bit tighter.  

 

Peter Angelos did the Chris Davis fiasco not John Angelos.  The issue is different now because Peter Angelos had plenty of cash flow from his law firm so he could spend money that John Angelos doesn't have from outside sources.  The Baltimore Orioles is John Angelos only source of revenue.  I don't expect John Angelos to ever buy the top tier free agents.  He may be willing to sign his home grown stars but that remains to be seen.  

[wildcard]

The O's are built a lot like Tampa.  And that is no accident.

Elias needed a bat.  He signed Hicks.    He needs a reliever.  Vespit pitches 3 scoreless.   Need a starter?  GRod has a 2.51 ERA at AAA and is probably called up in July. (He is starting this evening by the way for Norfolk.)

Look at last years deadline moves.    Elias was forced to trade Mancini to get something for him.    He sold high on Lopez.    Got farm system pitching back in both cases. 

Some kind of a deal to move Frazier  probably packaged with a prospect is in this mold.   

As I said, I trust Elias will rely on his development system.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

The O's are built a lot like Tampa.  And that is no accident.

Elias needed a bat.  He signed Hicks.    He needs a reliever.  Vespit pitches 3 scoreless.   Need a starter?  GRod has a 2.51 ERA at AAA and is probably called up in July. (He is starting this evening by the way for Norfolk.)

Look at last years deadline moves.    Elias was forced to trade Mancini to get something for him.    He sold high on Lopez.    Got farm system pitching back in both cases. 

Some kind of a deal to move Frazier  probably packaged with a prospect is in this mold.   

As I said, I trust Elias will rely on his development system.

How are they built like Tampa?

 

[wildcard]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How are they built like Tampa?

 

Youth oriented team with a low payroll.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Youth oriented team with a low payroll.

Oh, like the Athletics.  Got it!

[Baltimorecuse]

1 hour ago, Three Run Homer said:

You may be right but I think that's the wrong attitude.  If you're in a good position to make the playoffs, you have make the moves to improve your chances of making the playoffs.  Once you're in the playoffs, anything can happen.  Even if you don't win a championship, getting playoff experience now can help you win a championship in the future.  And you can't put all your eggs in next season's basket--you never know what will happen with injuries or sudden ineffectiveness.  

We expect the guys we have here right now to play us into the playoffs.  If someone who could help us was available for the right price,  sure we should grab them.  I don't disagree with the rest of your comment.  

[Baltimorecuse]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

We are 29th in payroll and a really good starting pitcher and a bullpen arm away from being a legit contender. Those things are probably going to cost. I can't imagine if finances were not a restrictive matter why we would have signed Gibson and not Bassitt? Or why we would have signed Frazier and not an actual good player?

From everything that you have heard from John Angelos (press conferences/quotes), what gives you the impression that he is even interested in the Orioles competing for championships or that he is willing to spend any significant money on the team?

From the VERY FIRST GAME of the season (after the great game by Adley), he talked as if signing young players to extension was not a real interest/possibility. He seemed more passionate about talking about community development and his trip/partnership with Governor Moore than ANYTHING baseball related. 

And I don't agree that there are no good players to be found as Free Agents. You have to be careful and wise. But I can't see a realistic road to a World Series paved with no significant expenditures/investments. 

For the Stantons and Sales that you point out there are Marcus Siemens, Corey Seagers, Garret Coles, Freddie Freemans, Masataka Yoshias, etc that work out. FA is risky no doubt, but it is not totally useless. 

Btw, I think Sale was acquired in a trade from the White Sox and then extended by the Red Sox.

Knowing what the Angelos family thinks is beyond my pay grade. They don't travel in my circles.  I'll wait and see.  

[Baltimorecuse]

43 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How are they built like Tampa?

 

It occurred to me that Tampa is the small market model.  They don't go out and buy super stars.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Baltimorecuse said:

It occurred to me that Tampa is the small market model.  They don't go out and buy super stars.

They also extend star players to team friendly deals.

 

[Jagwar]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

What?

Huh?

I was making a joke about them saying neigh instead of nay.

I swear some folks really go out of their way to try and argue with me.

 

I'm not arguing with you, you're arguing with me! 

(Green Font)

[bluedog]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Well, ownership has made exactly ZERO commitments and investments up until this point under Elias' tenure. So all we have are those data points to rely on.

You may not like the deals (I didn't) but spending $32,550,000 on Frazier, Gibson, Coulombe, McCann and O'Hearn isn't ZERO investments. They made active decisions to spend that money when they could have filled all 5 of those spots with players on minimums.

And they are continuing to pay Santander & Mullins as their Arbitration numbers rises. If they were really into maximizing profits, they would have traded them last year along with Mancini and saved another $11.5M.

That's $44M in payroll they could have shed and put right back into ownership's pockets. That's a lot more than zero.

Now if you want to argue that they wasted money on Frazier, Gibson and McCann that would have been better spent elsewhere, I'll be right there with you. But it isn't accurate to say they aren't spending anything.

EDIT - I forgot Givens and Cordero which is another 6M+ which brings the financial commits to over $50M last year between FA spending and Arbitration eligible players who could have easily been moved for something valuable.

Edited July 3, 2023 by bluedog

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, Baltimorecuse said:

Knowing what the Angelos family thinks is beyond my pay grade. They don't travel in my circles.  I'll wait and see.  

I think that we have enough empirical data from their past behavior to draw reasonable/rational conclusion.

If they did begin to meaningfully invest into the team it would be a departure from EVERYTHING they have done during Elias' tenure.  

[Bemorewins]

38 minutes ago, bluedog said:

You may not like the deals (I didn't) but spending $32,550,000 on Frazier, Gibson, Coulombe, McCann and O'Hearn isn't ZERO investments. They made active decisions to spend that money when they could have filled all 5 of those spots with players on minimums.

And they are continuing to pay Santander & Mullins as their Arbitration numbers rises. If they were really into maximizing profits, they would have traded them last year along with Mancini and saved another $11.5M.

That's $44M in payroll they could have shed and put right back into ownership's pockets. That's a lot more than zero.

Now if you want to argue that they wasted money on Frazier, Gibson and McCann that would have been better spent elsewhere, I'll be right there with you. But it isn't accurate to say they aren't spending anything.

EDIT - I forgot Givens and Cordero which is another 6M+ which brings the financial commits to over $50M last year between FA spending and Arbitration eligible players who could have easily been moved for something valuable.

The Orioles have the 29th payroll in baseball. But I'm guessing that you knew that. You probably already knew about the $250-300 million dollar check they got from MLB this year. You probably knew that when you add the active payroll to the players on the injured list you get less than $60 million.

If that sounds like meaningful spending to you then you are right where they want you to be in terms of your perspective on them.

But you can miss me with the propaganda piece. I'm not buying any bit of it. They are not spending commensurately to the portion of the size of their profits or the other teams in MLB. When the Tampa Rays are outspending you, you are doing something wrong. 

As a matter of fact, the only team NOT outspending the Orioles is the team preparing to relocate.