Grade our two deadline moves

[Hallas]

29 minutes ago, ledzepp8 said:

"This deadline had a ton of impact rental arms"

Did it really though?  I wouldn't have been upset if the Orioles had traded for some of the other names out there. But let's not act like there was a Randy Johnson or CC Sabathia to be had.

 

 

I think there was the perception of a lot because the WS were listening on Cease and the Tigers tried to trade EdRod.  In terms of what actually changed hands there was a bit less because EdRod invoked his no-trade and Cease/Mariners pitchers didn't get moved.

 

30 minutes ago, ledzepp8 said:

I don't get this argument. Just because they have a surplus of prospects doesn't mean you trade them for anything, just to trade them.

 

But no one was advocating trading Norby or Cowser for Jack Flaherty.  If we traded those guys it was to acquire better pitchers like Montgomery or Verlander.

 

Verlander maybe was hard to get a handle on because he may or may not have accepted a trade to Baltimore.  But Montgomery was traded for an offer that the O's could have matched or beaten and I would have been much happier.

[Roy Firestone]

I think you MAY see Wells move into the pen with the Flaherty deal...also Hall could be in the pen if he pitches well back in Norfolk and Means could help us in September if he can pitch...that would make sense as to why they didnt get a decent relief pitcher...

[Moshagge3]

The gap between Montgomery and Flaherty doesn't seem that big to me. I guess Montgomery is a lefty which helps in OPACY, but over the limited course of the 8-10 starts that each guy is going to make, seems like a 50-50 shot who's going to provide more value.

[RarityFlaherty]

10 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Just turned on SportsCenter and ESPN was talking about deadline deal winners and losers. ESPN thinks the Orioles are the biggest trade deadline losers because they didn't add the arms they needed. Said Jack Flaherty has command problems and has lost games all by himself the past couple of seasons.

Like Cardinals fans said, Orioles got fleeced.

While Elias is an excellent evaluator of talent, what I'm thinking is that behind the scenes, either Elias is handcuffed by Angelos (who vetoes deals based on player salaries) or Elias has a long way to go before he becomes a highly skilled negotiator.  Probably the prior, if we can say that last year's 2022 deadline trades were good.

Fleeced? It’s hard to get fleeced when you don’t give up all that much. And who cares what ESPN says? ESPN is usually just garbage reporting for clicks and views like all other mainstream news outlets. 

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Just turned on SportsCenter and ESPN was talking about deadline deal winners and losers. ESPN thinks the Orioles are the biggest trade deadline losers because they didn't add the arms they needed. Said Jack Flaherty has command problems and has lost games all by himself the past couple of seasons.

Like Cardinals fans said, Orioles got fleeced.

While Elias is an excellent evaluator of talent, what I'm thinking is that behind the scenes, either Elias is handcuffed by Angelos (who vetoes deals based on player salaries) or Elias has a long way to go before he becomes a highly skilled negotiator.  Probably the prior, if we can say that last year's 2022 deadline trades were good.

You bring up some very god/interesting points.

As far as Flaherty the pitcher goes, he simply not that good. He's not a difference maker/needle mover, just a league average pitcher (think Kremer).

As far as the Orioles being fleeced is concerned, that is ludicrous. You actually have to give up something of value or take on something that is terrible in order to get fleeced. The O's did neither. IMO the Flaherty trade was a trade to minimize risk/not give up anything of real value/continue to hedge their bets and avoid having to make a hard choice, and cover some innings for the rest of the season (given the choice was to keep running Wells out there to get shelled or go with Cole Irvin).

Now, on to your last paragraph, that is the tricker/more interesting proposition of this all IMO. If either is true about Elias/Angelos we will have a serious problem. If both are true, we are up a creek.

Elias hasn't shown as of yet, any kind of good negotiating skills and or ability to close any significant deal. So I think that is fair to question. Angelos hasn't shown any interest in an Orioles team who wins a World Series or raising the bar toward championship goals. So that is fair to question also.

Something will probably have to change in the future for us to get over the hump. Hopefully, if our season doesn't end well, Elias will have learned a lesson and be determined to go into the offseason ready to close the deal and add the necessary talent to get the team over the hump.

I think he definitely learned/discovered that there are some teams/GMs who are equally as stubborn/patient as he is and you are not always going to be able to wait everyone out. Sometimes urgency is the appropriate action, not always caution/slowness/timidity/patience. Sometimes you got to grab an opportunity by the throat and go get it.

[Bemorewins]

8 minutes ago, Roy Firestone said:

I think you MAY see Wells move into the pen with the Flaherty deal...also Hall could be in the pen if he pitches well back in Norfolk and Means could help us in September if he can pitch...that would make sense as to why they didnt get a decent relief pitcher...

Those are all "ifs" and "maybes". That is not necessarily how good orgs operate when in this position in the standings. Why lean into that kind of risk when you don't have to? 

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

The gap between Montgomery and Flaherty doesn't seem that big to me. I guess Montgomery is a lefty which helps in OPACY, but over the limited course of the 8-10 starts that each guy is going to make, seems like a 50-50 shot who's going to provide more value.

I agree with most if not all of this. The problem is that Texas didn't just stop with Montgomery and call it quits. They added several other players in trades including Chapman and Scherzer. They are going to be tough to beat if we face them.

[Moshagge3]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I agree with most if not all of this. The problem is that Texas didn't just stop with Montgomery and call it quits. They added several other players in trades including Chapman and Scherzer. They are going to be tough to beat if we face them.

We'll see. Scherzer has allowed as many home runs this year as Kremer.

[ledzepp8]

23 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Just turned on SportsCenter and ESPN was talking about deadline deal winners and losers. ESPN thinks the Orioles are the biggest trade deadline losers because they didn't add the arms they needed. Said Jack Flaherty has command problems and has lost games all by himself the past couple of seasons.

Like Cardinals fans said, Orioles got fleeced.

While Elias is an excellent evaluator of talent, what I'm thinking is that behind the scenes, either Elias is handcuffed by Angelos (who vetoes deals based on player salaries) or Elias has a long way to go before he becomes a highly skilled negotiator.  Probably the prior, if we can say that last year's 2022 deadline trades were good.

I'm sure they said it, but I find it funny, since Baseball Tonight was praising the trade yesterday on the deadline show.

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

We'll see. Scherzer has allowed as many home runs this year as Kremer.

By no means do I think Scherzer is the pitcher that he used to be or that he is even very good anymore. But the point that I was making is that Texas did not stand pat, but sought to improve their team (even despite injuries to their best 2 starters). IMO that's what good orgs do when they have opportunities. You take your shots within reason.

[ledzepp8]

24 minutes ago, Hallas said:

 

I think there was the perception of a lot because the WS were listening on Cease and the Tigers tried to trade EdRod.  In terms of what actually changed hands there was a bit less because EdRod invoked his no-trade and Cease/Mariners pitchers didn't get moved.

 

 

But no one was advocating trading Norby or Cowser for Jack Flaherty.  If we traded those guys it was to acquire better pitchers like Montgomery or Verlander.

 

Verlander maybe was hard to get a handle on because he may or may not have accepted a trade to Baltimore.  But Montgomery was traded for an offer that the O's could have matched or beaten and I would have been much happier.

So they should have traded better prospects for someone that's only been a half a win better than the guy they got?

[LookinUp]

Didn’t read any of this thread, and likely won’t for at least 2 days, but I voted A for one simple reason.

Future Value in our system now is very high. The cream will rise and lead us for a decade, and the rest will move on. I don’t want to take away from the decade  for slightly better odds in one year.

[Hallas]

2 minutes ago, ledzepp8 said:

So they should have traded better prospects for someone that's only been a half a win better than the guy they got?

 

By Fangraphs the difference is a full win.  And yes, IMO they should have.  At least 2 or 3 of those guys have no shot at producing for the Orioles unless someone gets hurt or has some crazy underperformance.

[Number5]

1 hour ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

ESPN thinks the Orioles are the biggest trade deadline losers

Would that be the same ESPN that had the Mets and Padres as the big off-season winners?  That ESPN?  The experts?  They ALWAYS have those that spent the most as being the big winners of every trade or free agency season.  They're wrong far more often than they are right.

[sportsfan8703]

56 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Those are all "ifs" and "maybes". That is not necessarily how good orgs operate when in this position in the standings. Why lean into that kind of risk when you don't have to? 

If you take away "Ifs" and "maybes" it would be pretty boring around here.