Return of Buck

[HakunaSakata]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

But what are you disagreeing about? The comment was made. It 100% is him trying to deflect some blame otherwise, why even say it?

Because he's a stubborn old man who's incapable of taking responsibility for his actions?

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, HakunaSakata said:

...but who could he possibly be protecting (other than himself)? That's what's so weird about the quote. At that point is his tenor with the team , Buck was 100% making all of the on field calls. There's no chance anyone took that responsibility out of his hands. Not even our beloved fitness guru turned whipping boy, Brady Anderson. 

 

Just now, Jagwar said:

Understandable, but whose name would he even reasonably name? Britton? He said he was healthy and ready. A coach? Nonsense, the buck stopped with Buck. Ubaldo? Well Buck, you put him on the mound instead of the best reliever in baseball.  

 

Know what?  I don't know who else he could reasonably name.  And, quite frankly, I also really don't care.  It was seven years ago.

You guys are kind of making my point for me, you're playing some sort of a guessing game, re-hashing the Toronto game like you're trying to figure out if a 2nd gunman killed Kennedy or if Oswald acted alone.  

 

[Tony-OH]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Sure.

Maybe it's just me, but in there've been situations in life where I've felt the need to protect someone.  And not say a name, or not tell a story, or not divulge personal information.  And I really don't see a giant difference here.

The main difference is that some of you guys are still emotional 7 years later and feel the need to know every little thing that happened...because we feel like we deserve it for some reason.  And it bugs you that Buck won't share it, but alluded to a greater story.  

I don't have a huge issue with what he said though it continues to show that Buck refuses to take responsibility for that terrible managerial call. I just can't figure out who he could possibly be protecting? 

By the way, good leaders that "wear it" for someone else typically don't go around telling people that they are "wearing it".

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

Know what?  I don't know who else he could reasonably name.  And, quite frankly, I also really don't care.  It was seven years ago.

You guys are kind of making my point for me, you're playing some sort of a guessing game, re-hashing the Toronto game like you're trying to figure out if a 2nd gunman killed Kennedy or if Oswald acted alone.  

 

In our defense, isn't that what we do here?

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

In our defense, isn't that what we do here?

That's true!

[HakunaSakata]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

Know what?  I don't know who else he could reasonably name.  And, quite frankly, I also really don't care.  It was seven years ago.

You guys are kind of making my point for me, you're playing some sort of a guessing game, re-hashing the Toronto game like you're trying to figure out if a 2nd gunman killed Kennedy or if Oswald acted alone.  

 

I don't think a single person would be saying a bad word about him if he had just stepped up and owned it. In this case it's not so much the act as it it is him not fully taking responsibility for it. 

[Birds08]

Also remembering the "cavalry" that was supposedly coming in 2010/2011 [spoiler alert: it never came].  Buck brought us back without our best prospects panning out, at least in the roles we hoped they would.  Matusz, Loewen, Spoone, Erbe, Bergesen, Arrieta, Britton [as a SP] etc

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But what are you disagreeing about? The comment was made. It 100% is him trying to deflect some blame otherwise, why even say it?

Because of the logical fallacy that you can't deflect blame unless there's someone to actually deflect the blame to.  As it stands right now, it was still Buck's decision to not put Britton in and Ubaldo instead.  Not bench coach John Russell, not Rick Adair, not Dom Chiti, not anyone else.

The decision to not put in Britton still rests squarely on Buck's shoulders.

You don't agree with that, and that's fine.  So, agree to disagree.  

[foxfield]

Ah the call. 
 

In hindsight I never hated the call as much as I hated the result. In fairness the mistake in my mind was set up when Britton didn’t pitch in the 9th. Once you made the decision to hold him for the lead I can buy the idea that you ride that until you die.  I do completely get the idea that he was wrong. But mostly because it didn’t work. 
 

Bucks comments though are typical Buck. He says one thing.  “It’s my call.” Then clearly deflects the blame by saying he’s not naming names. He may not be throwing anyone under the bus but he is clearly saying don’t blame me. 
 

Glad he was here though and glad he is not now. Give him the ovation he earned and sweep his ass back to NY. 

[Aristotelian]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

Because of the logical fallacy that you can't deflect blame unless there's someone to actually deflect the blame to.  As it stands right now, it was still Buck's decision to not put Britton in and Ubaldo instead.  Not bench coach John Russell, not Rick Adair, not Dom Chiti, not anyone else.

The decision to not put in Britton still rests squarely on Buck's shoulders.

You don't agree with that, and that's fine.  So, agree to disagree.  

You can deflect blame away from yourself, and even attribute blame to other people, without naming those specific people. Now, he also contradicts himself and talks about wearing it, but the "innocent people" is absolutely shifting the responsibility. 

I think the earth is flat. Should we agree to disagree? It doesn't work that way. 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

You can deflect blame away from yourself, and even attribute blame to other people, without naming those specific people. Now, he also contradicts himself and talks about wearing it, but the "innocent people" is absolutely shifting the responsibility. 

I think the earth is flat. Should we agree to disagree? It doesn't work that way. 

Sure.  I mean, I'm kind of tired of debating this, and saying the earth is flat when comparing it to this situation is false equivalency, but you know that.

So, like I said, agree to disagree because at this point we're just talking in circles and no one here is changing anyone's mind.

[SteveA]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Because of the logical fallacy that you can't deflect blame unless there's someone to actually deflect the blame to.  As it stands right now, it was still Buck's decision to not put Britton in and Ubaldo instead.  Not bench coach John Russell, not Rick Adair, not Dom Chiti, not anyone else.

The decision to not put in Britton still rests squarely on Buck's shoulders.

You don't agree with that, and that's fine.  So, agree to disagree.  

No, but talking mysteriously the way he does lets our imagination run to other possibilities.   A miscommunication that led to the wrong guy being up in the pen.   Britton warmed the inning before, maybe he wasn't locating one of his pitches well at all in the warmup and that got reported back to Buck.   Or may be he winced after throwing a warmup pitch and that got back to Buck.

Are any of those things likely?   Probalby not.   But when you add a spicy little mystery by talking about not wanting to blame some one else, it's pretty natural to start wondering what he might mean by that and invent unlikely scenarios.   That's human nature.

So when you say "this is on me"  .... BUT... and then you say something that opens up speculation that someone else might be to blame, are you REALLY accepting responsibility?

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, SteveA said:

No, but talking mysteriously the way he does lets our imagination run to other possibilities.   A miscommunication that led to the wrong guy being up in the pen.   Britton warmed the inning before, maybe he wasn't locating one of his pitches well at all in the warmup and that got reported back to Buck.   Or may be he winced after throwing a warmup pitch and that got back to Buck.

Are any of those things likely?   Probalby not.   But when you add a spicy little mystery by talking about not wanting to blame some one else, it's pretty natural to start wondering what he might mean by that and invent unlikely scenarios.   That's human nature.

So when you say "this is on me"  .... BUT... and then you say something that opens up speculation that someone else might be to blame, are you REALLY accepting responsibility?

Like I said...you guys are annoyed because you want answers.  You all are dying to know what happened and why he didn't put Britton in and, quite frankly, I don't find it interesting anymore.  My imagination isn't running wild here because it's exhausting. 

To me, yes, you're accepting responsibility by not allowing anyone else to be involved.  I've said it repeatedly here.  And like I said, it's exhausting.

 

[Billy F-Face3]

What those comments sound like to me is that someone, possibly the bench coach or the pitching coach (or maybe even the GM or Owner calling in), talked Buck into the decision that was made. He took their counsel and it was the wrong decision. But unless there's some injury that goes deeper than that, and even if there is, the responsibility for the final decision falls at the Manager's feet.

In any case, time moves on. 

Buck took over a bleeding franchise in the middle of a season that had began with turmoil, and he turned the Orioles into winners for half a decade.

I really hope Buck gets the standing ovation and warm welcome that he deserves. Buck Showalter was one of the best Orioles managers of my lifetime.

[Aristotelian]

4 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

 

I really hope Buck gets the standing ovation and warm welcome that he deserves. Buck Showalter was one of the best Orioles managers of my lifetime.

In honor of Buck's doublespeak, I hope he gets the standing O, but also hope to see some witty fan signs asking why he didn't use Britton.