Mateo/Ortiz/Holliday — who could help us most THIS SEASON

[Gurgi]

I went with Ortiz.  I would also like to see Kjerstad in September because I think having a plus plus power bat swinging lefty in Camden could really help in the playoffs.

[baltfan]

I chose Mateo.  To me this is about the playoffs and his skill set is superior to the others for the role that any of them would be playing. 

[wildcard]

Pretty hard to help the O's if the player is not on the team.  

With Mullins and Hick coming back in the next two weeks I am guessing the McKenna and Cowser get sent down.  One Sept 1st rosters expand by one position play and one pitcher.    Will Elias promote a 3rd catcher, bring back Cowser, or promote Ortiz?   Don't know.

And there is the injury factor.

 Right now I would say Mateo because he is actually on the team and is probably not going to be DFA'd if they have not done it by now.

Ortiz could be the 28th man.   If he is he probably will not get much more playing time than he has  had this year.  Inconsistent at best.

I don't see Elias starting Holliday's clock.

[AnythingO's]

It is impossible to answer without knowing what Hyde will do. He has Frazier, Westburg, Urias, and Gunnar already. All are producing offensively at present. Unless ME tells Hyde that the winner of this trio starts at SS rest of year, this player will be the 26th man and have little impact. Regardless of what he is doing at AA, Holiday is not better than Gunnar defensively or probably offensively right now. Ortiz "could" be better defensively than Gunnar and be productive with the bat. Not better than Gunnar but maybe Urias. If so that would help the team now. Mateo is a lost cause, distant third. If they are to be the 26th man then we are only talking about a bench bat, pinch runner. I would say Kjerstad is the most developed bat in the minors. This year in 184 ABs he hit .310 .383 .576 .959 at AA and is now in 178 ABs in AAA with a .337 .409 .590 .999. He is literally up across the board in AAA vs AA. As 26th man Kjerstad over Holiday over Ortiz.

[Aristotelian]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

How Aristotelian of you!  The question of “could” has plagued philosophers for centuries!

By “could,” I mean “would, if he were on the team.”  Does that help?   

"Would if he were on the team" is definitely more specific and at least focuses the discussion. Still a tough call. We have solid performers at every position so it's not clear where there is a team need. 

Ortiz has a great resume and experience against higher levels. Holliday has the tools and pedigree. Either one could struggle to surpass Urias's 1.5 WAR. 

Depending on what happens with Mullins and Hicks, there might be more of an opportunity for Kjerstad. And I still like Mateo as a pinch runner.

[MarCakes21]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

IMO despite the tremendous talents/potential of our prospects Holliday and Ortiz. I don't believe calling up either is needed/necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I only see Mateo having 1 useful skill now and certainly for the post season (his speed). But that is probably enough for the rest of the run this season. Mullins and Hicks will return soon in effect removing Mateo from CF (and hopefully from the lineup).

As it relates to Holliday and Ortiz, it would represent a risk (which the org appears very adversed to) brining up either up and inserting them in the lineup on a regular basis. From the recent experiences (last few years) we can surmise that it might be reasonable to expect that it could take some time for either to adjust to big league pitching. And that is simply time that we don't have to give at this juncture of the season and with the magnitude of the games. (We are already going through this with Cowser.) IMO we don't need to add a second regular hitter to the lineup who is of a similar ineffective/noncompetitive nature right now.

Of course this could be said about Mateo. But again, I feel the solution is to get our regular and backup CF in the outfield soon, thus regulating Mateo to the 26th man/bench/pinch runner role for the rest of this season and into the playoffs.

I think Mateo's defense and Ortiz's for that matter are not very relevant right now because IMO Gunnar should get everyday reps at SS. I keep going back to the point that there appears to be no need (given what we have seen from him in the field at the position this year) to attempt to move him off of SS. He has done excellent there. Also, I feel that it is too late in the year to yo-yo him back and forth. Just leave him where he is unless he proves that he cannot handle it. 

Last thing about the defensive capabilities of Mateo/Ortiz. I have heard it mentioned by multiple posters that either/both can serve as a defensive replacement. While that may be true, how often does the SS position ever require a defensive replacement in general? (IMO it rarely ever happens) What is it about Gunnar's SS defense that needs to be replaced/upgraded? 

Every bit of this.

When Mullins comes back, Mateo goes back to the bench for a pinch runner replacement for O'Hearn/McCann/Santander.  Hays/Cowser should get the regular backup reps in CF.

So you're really asking is the potential upside of Ortiz/Holliday better than when you know from Urias/Westburg.  I'd say it could be, but at present, there's too much risk in that result.  If you thought Ortiz was better at 2B than Westburg, then you wait until September and making him a defensive replacement in late innings.  If you think Holliday could outhit Urias, then you wait until September to bring him up as a pinch hitter - but in reality, someone like O'Hearn/Mountcastle/Santander are on your bench already to pinch hit.

[wildcard]

The spot for Ortiz may be vs lefties.    Urias, Gunnar and Frazier have not hitting lefties well.  Westburg is hitting both lefties and righties.   I could see Ortiz being the 28th man in Sept playing vs lefties.  He is hitting lefties at AAA.

[spleen1015]

Keeping Mateo on the roster doesn't make any sense. I don't care about his pinch running chances every other game or so. He's a liability. Every opportunity he gets should go to someone else, Ortiz/Cowser. Cowser should have been playing last night instead of Mateo. He needs every opportunity to get better. LHP SP and all of that, I don't care. He needs playing time to get better so that he can help us in October. We already know Mateo won't make much of a contribution then.

[Aristotelian]

11 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

Keeping Mateo on the roster doesn't make any sense. I don't care about his pinch running chances every other game or so. He's a liability. Every opportunity he gets should go to someone else, Ortiz/Cowser. Cowser should have been playing last night instead of Mateo. He needs every opportunity to get better. LHP SP and all of that, I don't care. He needs playing time to get better so that he can help us in October. We already know Mateo won't make much of a contribution then.

Mateo is hitting .790 OPS vs LHP, hit a huge triple and scored in a 2-0 game on Sunday, and brought back a homer earlier in the HOU game. What exactly has Cowser done? I get that a lot of the board is ready to DFA Mateo and that is reasonable, but he clearly has assets that cannot be dismissed easily. 

Anyway, Cowser is not really relevent. Cowser is here to play regular corner OF, he is not going to be the 5th OF. Right now he has an opportunity with Mullins and Hicks out but he has done nothing with it. I would be pretty surprised if he makes the playoff roster.

[oriole]

I went with Mateo for the reason being how this spot would be used. There’s no every day at bats to be had, I think that could potentially mess with Ortiz or Holliday. The spot that we’re talking about is a backup player and defensive replacement. That is Mateo, and he’s a good one to have on a good team. Obviously a bit of a luxury as he moves through arbitration, but for the rest of this season at least…he’s a good player to have in the role he’s been playing as of late. 
If we’re talking every day at bats, I’m all about giving Ortiz some time. Holliday too, but he’d be pushed early while also leap frogging Ortiz, who deserves an honest look in MLB. Hard to say who would be better, but I know which one has the higher ceiling.

[sportsfan8703]

Holliday.  Imagine having another Mullins batting 9th. We could be like those Indians teams from the 90's with their 9-1-2.  Holliday-Mullins-Adley.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by sportsfan8703

[G54377]

In the postseason my answer would be Mateo, because he could be a pinch runner every game (none of them are starting). In the regular season where guys actually get spot starts, probably Ortiz slightly over Holliday.

[spleen1015]

42 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Mateo is hitting .790 OPS vs LHP, hit a huge triple and scored in a 2-0 game on Sunday, and brought back a homer earlier in the HOU game. What exactly has Cowser done? I get that a lot of the board is ready to DFA Mateo and that is reasonable, but he clearly has assets that cannot be dismissed easily. 

Anyway, Cowser is not really relevent. Cowser is here to play regular corner OF, he is not going to be the 5th OF. Right now he has an opportunity with Mullins and Hicks out but he has done nothing with it. I would be pretty surprised if he makes the playoff roster.

We can find examples of any scrub helping their team here and there. He also misplayed a flyball in the 9th that made a difference in the game. The 'HR robbing' catch is getting overrated attention. It wasn't that great of a play.

Cowser needs the experience is all I'm saying. We already know Mateo isn't that good.

[RZNJ]

34 minutes ago, oriole said:

I went with Mateo for the reason being how this spot would be used. There’s no every day at bats to be had, I think that could potentially mess with Ortiz or Holliday. The spot that we’re talking about is a backup player and defensive replacement. That is Mateo, and he’s a good one to have on a good team. Obviously a bit of a luxury as he moves through arbitration, but for the rest of this season at least…he’s a good player to have in the role he’s been playing as of late. 
If we’re talking every day at bats, I’m all about giving Ortiz some time. Holliday too, but he’d be pushed early while also leap frogging Ortiz, who deserves an honest look in MLB. Hard to say who would be better, but I know which one has the higher ceiling.

We watched two different plays if you think Mateo brought a homer back into the ballpark last night.  Nice catch though.

[Greg Pappas]

Statcast has a"stat" called Sprint Speed and 27.3 feet/sec is considered average.  They lists the O's as follows:

• Mateo as tied for 6th fastest player in baseball at 30.1
• Westburg at 29.0
• Gunnar/McKenna at 28.8  
• Mountcastle at 28.2
• Ortiz at 28.1
• Mullins/Cowser/O'Hearn at 27.9
• Hays at 27.6
• Hicks at 27.4
• Rutschman at 26.9
• Santander/Urias at 26.6
• Frazier at 26.3
• McCann at 26.2

Holliday does not have a Statcast speed registered, but is considered to plus to plus-plus speed.  I imagine he runs at least as well as Gunnar.  Others may have a better understanding of just how fast he is.

FWIW I didn't feel the need to start a new thread, but instead felt this would be informative in regards to comparing players.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Greg Pappas