John Angelos continues to remind us how awful he is

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, dystopia said:

The Oakland A’s probably have something to say about that, but that’s about it. 

Why because he’s moving them to Oakland. The Oakland market is very small in regards revenue. They lost the Raiders for the same reason. They’ve lost 3 major league franchises in 5 years. 
 

Quote

As professional sports teams have grown in wealth, Oakland, which is poorer than its neighboring San Francisco and San Jose, has struggled to compete with other cities to provide state-of-the-art facilities for their professional sports teams.Apr

 

[DrungoHazewood]

16 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Why because he’s moving them to Oakland. The Oakland market is very small in regards revenue. They lost the Raiders for the same reason. They’ve lost 3 major league franchises in 5 years. 
 

 

Another way to look at that is Oakland has simply refused to give $1B+ in taxpayer money to a billionaire on his terms. I don't really blame them. They've tried to come up with a workable plan, but the A's ownership has repeatedly said "no, I'd prefer a lot more taxes be diverted in my direction or I'll deprive you of your major league sports team."

The worst part of the North American sports model is the fact that teams are franchises fully owned by some rich guy who can take his ball and go somewhere else if he's not adequately pampered. As opposed to the structure in the rest of the world where teams are clubs started in the local area and temporarily owned by some rich guy, and the fans get really irate if the current owner messes with their club.

[dystopia]

37 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Why because he’s moving them to Oakland. The Oakland market is very small in regards revenue. They lost the Raiders for the same reason. They’ve lost 3 major league franchises in 5 years. 
 

 

They’ve been there decades. The team has history and a fan base (unlike TB and MIA, for example). Fisher has purposefully gutted the franchise and made them terrible just so he can get MLB on board with moving them. 
 

At least JA brought in Elias and seems to be okay with winning, even if the reasons are entirely self serving. Believe me, being worse than JA is an extremely difficult feat, but Fisher seems to have pulled it off. 

[Rbiggs2525]

Why doesn’t this idiot start talking November 1st. Still gives you 60 days to get your narrative out and deal done. Stop ruining this for all of us. 

[MDK02]

Is JA mad that the team is good? It sure seems like he’s pissed off. 

[emmett16]

21 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Another way to look at that is Oakland has simply refused to give $1B+ in taxpayer money to a billionaire on his terms. I don't really blame them. They've tried to come up with a workable plan, but the A's ownership has repeatedly said "no, I'd prefer a lot more taxes be diverted in my direction or I'll deprive you of your major league sports team."

The worst part of the North American sports model is the fact that teams are franchises fully owned by some rich guy who can take his ball and go somewhere else if he's not adequately pampered. As opposed to the structure in the rest of the world where teams are clubs started in the local area and temporarily owned by some rich guy, and the fans get really irate if the current owner messes with their club.

In Castellano, but you'll get the idea. 

Kind of ironic his name is Peter, too.  We could get a 'Peter vete, ya' cheer going on at inner harbor, who's with me? 

[Going Underground]

7 minutes ago, MDK02 said:

Is JA mad that the team is good? It sure seems like he’s pissed off. 

He is mad because certain people are leaking things about the lease ,etc.  He thought the governor, sort of a friend and donor to his campaign would just go to him and say let me know what you want and I will.give you the keys to the kingdom. He barely would negotiate with the Hogan administration  He was waiting for Moore, in more ways then one.  But Governor Moore has now realized that he has constituents that don't care about the Orioles and facing a budget deficit for the state. I doubt we see any more joint press releases, maybe if John signs a long term lease.

I remember when Dan Connolly asked him  a question and John said are you from Baltimore? Dan has been covering the team for many many years and I am sure he knew who he was. I guess it mattered to John because then he talked to the NYT. But he wants to make it a national story because he also wants federal funding. He has sat down with both Maryland senators and a few congressman. I guess a bank is out of the question, but that is not other peoples money. Maybe a foreign government like the Saudis. Baltimore LIV Orioles? LIV Stadium? Patches on the uniform of the Crown Prince? Get er done .

 

 

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, maybenxtyr said:

Without retaining some of the younger/prime players it won't happen. The only team close to what you are describing is Tampa, and they've yet to win a WS. They've made the playoffs 8 out of 15 seasons since they've been "winners". That's not terrible, but I don't know if that's what I would call a perennial playoff team. And even they spend more money than the O's.

I have more faith in Elias' ability to put a team together to win in the playoffs and World Series.   He hoards players so there is not much drop off when someone is injured.   He goes for high character players so he does not lose players due to extracurricular activities.  

He knows that he probably will not sign Adley and Gunnar passed FA so I think he will be ready for that in advance.     Bradfield to replace Mullins is an example.   He has hit on a high number of prospects so far.  Instead of spending some of his top 10 prospect talent at the deadline he keep them and trade Prieto, Showalter and Lucas.   

 

[foxfield]

An owner of a professional team maximizing leverage for the benefit of the organization...wow...I mean who would have guessed that?

I am not a fan of Angelos.  Not John, not Peter.  I have posted as recently as yesterday how much I am hopeful an "event" can occur as soon as possible that will result in the sale of the Orioles.  But I see a fair amount of confusion here on the multiple issues surrounding team Angelos.  I worked in my professional career with a large bank in Private Banking and worked on Trust and Estate issues.  During that time I worked on one professional sports team sale and a couple of minor league type actions.  Below is just my opinion.  Even though news has printed things about the Angelos family, we are not looking at controlling documents of Peter Angelos, the Baltimore Orioles or MLB...

The Orioles, whether in Peter Angelos' name or in the name of a trust for his benefit, will pass at his death.  It will pass either to his wife estate tax free, or it will pass to a designated beneficiary and be taxable for estate tax purposes, or it could be retained in trust for the duration of the life of his spouse.  

The Estate tax, or death tax, is not the same tax as the capital gain tax.  The capital gain tax is a tax on the difference in value between what you paid for an item and what it is worth when you sell it.  At Peters death, the asset of the Orioles should receive a step up in basis to the current value.  This is the reason that the family will do almost anything to avoid a sale while Peter is alive.

Peter is a smart man, and has likely taken steps to give his family as much flexibility in this situation as he can.  Placing the Orioles in a trust, which it appears he has done, is one way to do this.  

At his death, the capital gains taxes will be eliminated therefore saving his family millions.  The estate taxes, can be postponed if the Orioles pass directly to his wife or stay in trust for her lifetime.  

Here is where MLB enters.  They have to approve this.  They had to approve the change in leadership that put John Angelos in charge of Peters team.  

It has been intimated that the MLB granted the change to John Angelos because disallowing the change would have forced a sale and thwarted good tax planning costing the Angelos family millions.  It was further intimated that the MLB could grant the change in leadership subject to an agreement that the Orioles were sold upon Peters death...in reasonable time.

IF MLB has done this, and the Orioles will sell after Peters death, this is much ado about nothing.  It's just John doing everything he can to milk the value of the team.  We can hate that, but from a fiduciary standpoint, if he gets more money from Maryland, he has done his job.

In summary,

If the MLB made a deal, or cannot otherwise block, a scenario that would allow the Orioles to pass to Peters 81 year old wife, then it isn't Peter whose death is awaited, but his wife's.  Add in the fact that MLB allows Private Equity firms to own interests in teams and if an agreement isn't already in hand that the Orioles will be sold...I do think it is possible that John Angelos can find a way to hold on.

I realize that isn't what anyone wants to hear, but unless MLB has already agreed with Angelos to sell, I am not sure that anyone will be able to force it.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, foxfield said:

An owner of a professional team maximizing leverage for the benefit of the organization...wow...I mean who would have guessed that?

I am not a fan of Angelos.  Not John, not Peter.  I have posted as recently as yesterday how much I am hopeful an "event" can occur as soon as possible that will result in the sale of the Orioles.  But I see a fair amount of confusion here on the multiple issues surrounding team Angelos.  I worked in my professional career with a large bank in Private Banking and worked on Trust and Estate issues.  During that time I worked on one professional sports team sale and a couple of minor league type actions.  Below is just my opinion.  Even though news has printed things about the Angelos family, we are not looking at controlling documents of Peter Angelos, the Baltimore Orioles or MLB...

The Orioles, whether in Peter Angelos' name or in the name of a trust for his benefit, will pass at his death.  It will pass either to his wife estate tax free, or it will pass to a designated beneficiary and be taxable for estate tax purposes, or it could be retained in trust for the duration of the life of his spouse.  

The Estate tax, or death tax, is not the same tax as the capital gain tax.  The capital gain tax is a tax on the difference in value between what you paid for an item and what it is worth when you sell it.  At Peters death, the asset of the Orioles should receive a step up in basis to the current value.  This is the reason that the family will do almost anything to avoid a sale while Peter is alive.

Peter is a smart man, and has likely taken steps to give his family as much flexibility in this situation as he can.  Placing the Orioles in a trust, which it appears he has done, is one way to do this.  

At his death, the capital gains taxes will be eliminated therefore saving his family millions.  The estate taxes, can be postponed if the Orioles pass directly to his wife or stay in trust for her lifetime.  

Here is where MLB enters.  They have to approve this.  They had to approve the change in leadership that put John Angelos in charge of Peters team.  

It has been intimated that the MLB granted the change to John Angelos because disallowing the change would have forced a sale and thwarted good tax planning costing the Angelos family millions.  It was further intimated that the MLB could grant the change in leadership subject to an agreement that the Orioles were sold upon Peters death...in reasonable time.

IF MLB has done this, and the Orioles will sell after Peters death, this is much ado about nothing.  It's just John doing everything he can to milk the value of the team.  We can hate that, but from a fiduciary standpoint, if he gets more money from Maryland, he has done his job.

In summary,

If the MLB made a deal, or cannot otherwise block, a scenario that would allow the Orioles to pass to Peters 81 year old wife, then it isn't Peter whose death is awaited, but his wife's.  Add in the fact that MLB allows Private Equity firms to own interests in teams and if an agreement isn't already in hand that the Orioles will be sold...I do think it is possible that John Angelos can find a way to hold on.

I realize that isn't what anyone wants to hear, but unless MLB has already agreed with Angelos to sell, I am not sure that anyone will be able to force it.

I have heard a rumor from a source that I know knows people but it doesn’t mean the info is reliable…what he has told me is that PA’s family has been keeping alive on feeding tubes and things like that for over a year and that if they disconnected him, he would pass away.

Is there any benefit from them keeping him alive?

[AnythingO's]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I have heard a rumor from a source that I know knows people but it doesn’t mean the info is reliable…what he has told me is that PA’s family has been keeping alive on feeding tubes and things like that for over a year and that if they disconnected him, he would pass away. Is there any benefit from them keeping him alive?

Didn't Georgia commission someone to pursue a sale in 2022 before JA stopped it? Pretty sure that's true so we know what she wants to do. JA obviously wants the step up in basis before any sale to minimize capital gains. He asked for a 2 year lease extension vs the long term lease needed to gain access to the $600 M. He wants more State or Fed $$ to build a monument to his ego in Camden Corner. Keeping PA alive for now allows JA to pocket big profits now to pay inheritance taxes when the time comes while pursuing his Camden Corner dream. If/when that gambit fails, he pulls the plug, Georgia sells, and JA walks away richer.

[foxfield]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I have heard a rumor from a source that I know knows people but it doesn’t mean the info is reliable…what he has told me is that PA’s family has been keeping alive on feeding tubes and things like that for over a year and that if they disconnected him, he would pass away.

Is there any benefit from them keeping him alive?

Pure speculation.  If Peters death is not a triggering event, then the only reason to extend his life is because he personally wanted that.  People can have Advanced Medical Directives that are essentially special and specific Power's of Attorney.  Most people do this to keep from having their lives prolonged after exhausting reasonable medicine.  But in my time, I had on occasion, clients that wanted to live forever, no matter how small the chance and they were willing to bear any expense to do so.  This is rare.

On the other hand, if Peter Angelos' death is going to trigger a transfer, there are many potential reasons to seek to delay that.

1). Team is more valuable with as much money committed to them as possible.

2).  Team is having a nice two year run of success all while spending virtually no money (29th payroll out of 30).

3). Minor League system ranked among the est.

4). No long term commitments at all.

5). If he intends to keep the team, it gives him time to build his profile in hopes of securing partners.

None of these would have been knowable many months ago, so I believe the easiest option is simply buying as much time as possible in hopes that the value increases. 

IMHO

[dystopia]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I have heard a rumor from a source that I know knows people but it doesn’t mean the info is reliable…what he has told me is that PA’s family has been keeping alive on feeding tubes and things like that for over a year and that if they disconnected him, he would pass away.

Is there any benefit from them keeping him alive?

He was reported to have “advanced stage dementia” over a year ago so I don’t doubt this for a second. I’ve been surprised that he’s still alive for awhile now, but that’s what the world’s best healthcare gets you. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, foxfield said:

Pure speculation.  If Peters death is not a triggering event, then the only reason to extend his life is because he personally wanted that.  People can have Advanced Medical Directives that are essentially special and specific Power's of Attorney.  Most people do this to keep from having their lives prolonged after exhausting reasonable medicine.  But in my time, I had on occasion, clients that wanted to live forever, no matter how small the chance and they were willing to bear any expense to do so.  This is rare.

On the other hand, if Peter Angelos' death is going to trigger a transfer, there are many potential reasons to seek to delay that.

1). Team is more valuable with as much money committed to them as possible.

2).  Team is having a nice two year run of success all while spending virtually no money (29th payroll out of 30).

3). Minor League system ranked among the est.

4). No long term commitments at all.

5). If he intends to keep the team, it gives him time to build his profile in hopes of securing partners.

None of these would have been knowable many months ago, so I believe the easiest option is simply buying as much time as possible in hopes that the value increases. 

IMHO

Yea, from what I heard, it’s been 18 months or so that they have been doing this.

Again, this may be bs. I wouldn’t be surprised but that doesn’t mean it’s true.

And yea, I’m trying to think beyond the idea that maybe this is what he wants. I’m trying to think of, again if true, how this would financially benefit the family.

[wildcard]

17 minutes ago, foxfield said:

An owner of a professional team maximizing leverage for the benefit of the organization...wow...I mean who would have guessed that?

I am not a fan of Angelos.  Not John, not Peter.  I have posted as recently as yesterday how much I am hopeful an "event" can occur as soon as possible that will result in the sale of the Orioles.  But I see a fair amount of confusion here on the multiple issues surrounding team Angelos.  I worked in my professional career with a large bank in Private Banking and worked on Trust and Estate issues.  During that time I worked on one professional sports team sale and a couple of minor league type actions.  Below is just my opinion.  Even though news has printed things about the Angelos family, we are not looking at controlling documents of Peter Angelos, the Baltimore Orioles or MLB...

The Orioles, whether in Peter Angelos' name or in the name of a trust for his benefit, will pass at his death.  It will pass either to his wife estate tax free, or it will pass to a designated beneficiary and be taxable for estate tax purposes, or it could be retained in trust for the duration of the life of his spouse.  

The Estate tax, or death tax, is not the same tax as the capital gain tax.  The capital gain tax is a tax on the difference in value between what you paid for an item and what it is worth when you sell it.  At Peters death, the asset of the Orioles should receive a step up in basis to the current value.  This is the reason that the family will do almost anything to avoid a sale while Peter is alive.

Peter is a smart man, and has likely taken steps to give his family as much flexibility in this situation as he can.  Placing the Orioles in a trust, which it appears he has done, is one way to do this.  

At his death, the capital gains taxes will be eliminated therefore saving his family millions.  The estate taxes, can be postponed if the Orioles pass directly to his wife or stay in trust for her lifetime.  

Here is where MLB enters.  They have to approve this.  They had to approve the change in leadership that put John Angelos in charge of Peters team.  

It has been intimated that the MLB granted the change to John Angelos because disallowing the change would have forced a sale and thwarted good tax planning costing the Angelos family millions.  It was further intimated that the MLB could grant the change in leadership subject to an agreement that the Orioles were sold upon Peters death...in reasonable time.

IF MLB has done this, and the Orioles will sell after Peters death, this is much ado about nothing.  It's just John doing everything he can to milk the value of the team.  We can hate that, but from a fiduciary standpoint, if he gets more money from Maryland, he has done his job.

In summary,

If the MLB made a deal, or cannot otherwise block, a scenario that would allow the Orioles to pass to Peters 81 year old wife, then it isn't Peter whose death is awaited, but his wife's.  Add in the fact that MLB allows Private Equity firms to own interests in teams and if an agreement isn't already in hand that the Orioles will be sold...I do think it is possible that John Angelos can find a way to hold on.

I realize that isn't what anyone wants to hear, but unless MLB has already agreed with Angelos to sell, I am not sure that anyone will be able to force it.

Thanks for this.  I have been saying a lot of this for years based on what I know about trusts and what has happen to the Ilitch's ownership of the Tigers.  

Where did you get the intimated that there was any agreement between the O's and Angelos to sell at all? Even at Peter's dead?

The Big unknown for me is does Georgia want to continue to own the Orioles.