Jump to content

Is Elias the best GM in team history?


Moose Milligan

Recommended Posts

Obviously his chapter as GM isn't over, but is he already the best GM in Orioles history?  Yes, hyperbole, recency bias, etc.

There's a lot of great GMs in the history of the team; Harry Dalton, Lee MacPhail, Frank Cashen, Henry Peters, Pat Gillick and Dan Duquette.  I am sure I am probably missing a name or two.

But when you consider that a lot of those names weren't competing in an era where free agency wasn't a thing or when free agency was in it's infancy, I think Elias is in a class of his own.  Gillick and Duquette were "win now" types that didn't put too much of an emphasis on the minor league system, even though DD's fingerprints are on the team that won the division last night.  But I always think of DD as a guy who was fixing an airplane while it was flying.

Taking into consideration the amount that other teams in the division spend and that the system was in the lower third of practically every ranking when he took over, it's hard not to look at Elias as the best GM in the history of the franchise.  Going from 52 wins two years ago to 100 wins and a division title in two years is something no one has done in baseball history, IIRC.  It's been a complete overhaul and it's a new "Oriole Way."

Like I said, his chapter isn't over yet but given his circumstances (read: dealing with John Angelos) I do believe he's the best we've had.  

Edited by Moose Milligan
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You didn’t name the one I’d pick, Paul Richards.  He established the entire “Oriole Way.”  The team didn’t have a winning season until the year he turned over the reins to MacPhail (though Richards remained the manager), but he basically built the foundation that underlaid the team having 24 winning seasons in 26 years.

I do think that Elias is right up there, though.  The organization was in desperate straits when he took the reins, and now they are well-positioned for a long run of success. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m not enough of an Os history guy to speak definitively about the pre-Pat Gillick days, but he’s certainly the best in my lifetime and it isn’t close. Also while Elias appropriately credits DD for having a few pieces in place, DD also had quite a few key pieces from Andy MacPhail.

I was happy to see Elias give Angelos pretty effusive, unprompted praise last night in his interview. I don’t care for Angelos at all but given the fans collective angst that Angelos and Elias will ultimately want a divorce sooner rather than later, I don’t think you’d see the GM volunteering those comments unprompted if there was legitimate tension behind the scenes. Obviously it could just be Elias caught up in the moment or playing good professional politics, but I thought it was a good sign. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's hard to say because the landscape has changed so much in the time the modern Orioles have been in Baltimore. I think Paul Richards was in a similar situation, taking over a team that the Browns left with almost nothing and building the foundations of a dynasty.

Certainly every GM from about 1980 until Elias has to take serious demerits for overseeing a farm system that's rarely been even average despite regular high draft picks. Although it's always hard to disentangle ownership from GM in many ways. I'd argue any kind of success under the Angelos family gets you an automatic letter grade bump up.

Elias' final transcripts aren't set yet. He's done a fantastic job rebuilding, but with any luck he'll be here quite a bit longer. That could move him solidly towards the top of the list, or maybe not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned Hanlon is also on the shortlist for taking a mediocre American Association team and turning them into one with three consecutive NL Championships followed by strong contention in the following three years.

But he does get some negative marks for his actions that directly resulted in the dismantling and contraction of the Orioles in 1899. So a little like if Elias' teams won the 2023-25 World Series, then moved to Nashville in '28.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to see more years of Elias before I say he is the best. He was the GM at the helm of two 100 loss seasons. I know that was part of the strategy, but 100 loss seasons are 100 loss seasons. It looks like he's set the team up for many years of success, but at this point they've only won 1 AL East title.

Lee MacPhail gets my vote simply for the Frank Robinson trade. I think it might be the most impactful transaction in the franchise's history.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Put me in the "it takes longevity" camp.

I love what he's doing though. I really love that we have two top 30ish prospects in baseball that weren't top picks (Mayo, Basallo), and I love that Bradish is a stud, Felix, Cano, Gunnar...just a lot of examples of why we're good even without the top overall draft guys (who are also good to say the least).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe Mike Elias has been more transformative than any GM in Os history. 
The very early hire of Koby Perez spoke volumes to me that this guy was about building a new structure unlike any before. 
From bringing Sig, to the analytics revamping, to the scouting and the player development departments, to the international presence and academy… Mike Elias has built structures that are necessary in modern baseball for success.  No other previous GM did that kind of organizational rebuild. 
Elias from day one has been about process and structure and we can all be proud of his work and it will bring great fruit going forward. 
I grade his work on all he has done in these past years, not just the fruit we see now. 

Edited by tntoriole
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Put me in the "it takes longevity" camp

Elias has been here 5 years.  Here’s the tenure of our other GMs:

Art Ehlers 1 year (1954)

Paul Richards 5 years (1955-59)

Lee MacPail 6 years (1960-65) 

Harry Dalton 6 years (1966-71)

Frank Cashen 4 years (1972-75)

Hank Peters 12 years (1975-87)

Roland Hemond 8 years (1988-95)

Pat Gillick 3 years (1996-98)

Frank Wren 1 year (1999)

Syd Thrift 3 years (2000-02)

Jim Beattie/Mike Flanagan 3 years (2003-05)

Mike Flanagan 1.5 years (2006-07)

Andy MacPhail 4.5 years (2007-11)

Dan Duquette 7 years (2012-18)

Mike Elias 5+ years (2019 - present)

So, Elias already has outlasted 8 of the 14 GM’s who preceded him.  How much more longevity do you think he needs in order to be considered seriously for no. 1?   Personally, I do think we need to see what happens with the franchise the next couple of years before fully judging his body of work, but not too much longer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

So, Elias already has outlasted 8 of the 14 GM’s who preceded him.  How much more longevity do you think he needs in order to be considered seriously for no. 1?   Personally, I do think we need to see what happens with the franchise the next couple of years before fully judging his body of work, but not too much longer.

Good point. Longevity of results probably matters more. You could argue that Elias could leave after we win the WS this year, we win another couple in the next 5 years, and he gets the lion's share of the credit and becomes the best GM in our team's history.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dystopia said:

I feel like Andy MacPhail deserves some love. He made excellent trades that were instrumental in our success from 2012-2016.

He did some things well. But he was also the GM who either championed or was okay with the idea that the only source of talent that met his ROI threshold was at-slot draft picks. No overslots. No international signings. Little in the way of creative trades. Basically no innovative scouting, analysis, development. Very little successful reclamation projects or Grade C prospects turning into solid MLB players. Pitching development and sustainment was terrifying under his leadership, at least at times.

The 2008-10 teams were not only trainwrecks, but directionless trainwrecks with half a dozen so-so 30+ year-old players on $7M contracts.

He gets a full letter grade deduction just for starting a season with Luis ".592 OPS in Bowie" Hernandez as the only plausible option at SS.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • Thanks for the detailed explanation of all of the issues.  Sounds like a mess.
    • Yeah the amenities are pretty outdated at the yard and they seem to do nothing year over year to improve them. The touchscreens have been banged on to death to the point they barely function, so you can't accurately fill out your order at the kiosks, and they don't have a way for the people behind the counter to ring you up at many of the food places. The sound is low to non-existent in certain sections of the club level, like around 218. Seems like there should be speakers that reach there but they might have been damaged by rain, etc. and they are too lazy to fix them. If you go to a game that's even slightly busy, you will wait forever to get into the bathroom, and the sink will be an absolute mess with no soap or paper towels. It's even worse on the club level where they have one sink that's right by the door. Nearby businesses don't care, either. The Hilton parking garage reeks of decay, pot and human waste. They don't turn on the air circulation fans, even if cars are waiting for an hour and a half to exit from P3, filling up the air with carbon monoxide. They only let you enter the stadium with one 20 oz bottle of water. It's so expensive to buy a drink or water in the stadium, but with all the salty food, 20 oz of water isn't enough, especially on a hot day. Vegetarian food options are poor to none, other than things like chips, fries, hot pretzels and the occasional pizza. Vida Taco is better, but at an inconvenient location for many seats. The doors on the club level are not accessible. They're anti-accessible. Big, heavy doors you have to go through to get to/from the escalators, and big, heavy doors to get to your seats, none of them automatic (or even with the option to be automatic with a button press). Makes it hard to carry food out to your seats even if not handicapped. The furniture in the lounges on the club level seem designed to allow as few people as possible to sit down. Not great when we have so many rain delays during the season. Should put more, smaller chairs in and allow more of the club level ticket holders to have a seat while waiting for thunderstorms to pass. They keep a lot of the entrance/exit gates closed except for playoff/sellout games, which means people have to slowly "mooooo" all the way down Eutaw St to get to parking. They are too cheap to staff all the gates, so they make people exit by the warehouse, even though it would be a lot more convenient for many fans to open all the gates. Taking Light Rail would be super convenient, except that if there's at least 20k fans in attendance, it's common to have to wait 90-120 minutes to be able to board a non-full train heading toward Glen Burnie. A few trains might come by, but they are already full, or fill up fast when folks walk up to the Convention Center stop to pre-empt the folks trying to board at Camden Station. None of the garages in the area are set up to require pre-payment on entry (reservation, or give them your card / digital payment at the entrance till). If they were, emptying out the garage would be very quick, as they wouldn't need to ticket anyone on the way out: if you can't get in without paying, you can always just leave without having to stop and scan your phone or put a ticket in the machine. They shut down the Sports Legends Museum at Camden Station in 2015 because the Maryland Stadium Authority was too greedy. That place was a fun distraction if you were in the area when a game wasn't about to start, like if you show up super early on Opening Day or a playoff day. Superbook's restaurant on Eutaw is a huge downgrade from Dempsey's in terms of menu and service quality. Dempsey's used to be well-staffed, you could reserve a table online, and they had all kinds of great selection for every diet. Superbook seems like just another bar serving the same swill that the rest of the park serves, with extremely minimal and low-quality food. For that matter, most of the food at the stadium is very low quality these days. A lot of things we used to love are made to a lower standard now if they are served at all. These are gripes about the stadium and the area that haven't changed my entire adult life. Going to an O's game requires one to tolerate many small inconveniences and several major inconveniences, any number of which could easily be fixed by the relevant authorities if they gave a damn about the people who pay to come see the team play. You would think a mid-market team would be able to afford to invest in the fan experience. You would think the city and partnering organizations like garages, the Stadium Authority and MTA would at least try to do their part to make the experience enjoyable and free of kinks. You would think they would put some thought into handling the "growing pains" of the fanbase due to recent renewed interest after the dark years. Instead, all we get is the same indifference and the same annoyances year in and year out. The whole area is overdue for a revamp. Not sure if $600 mil will get it done, but at least it's a start. Hopefully they can start to patch up some of the many holes in the fan experience. If you're not going to invest in Burnes, at least make it so paying customers have an easier, more enjoyable time getting to/from the stadium and having some food while we're there.
    • Elias has only been in rebuild mode with the O's so there's not much to speculate on there.  Houston, where he spent his formative years, doesn't seem to like to be on the hook for more than a couple of big long-term contracts at any given time.  I can see that as being Elias' choice as well, albeit with a lower overall cost - Houston runs a big payroll.  But it's all guesswork.  I really don't know. If Elias takes the 2025 payroll to $150 million it will creep up to $200 million or so by 2028 just from keeping the core together.  That's where I start to wonder about sustainability due to market size, economic forces, etc., etc., etc... If it were up to me, I would add a couple of free agents this offseason even if the contracts were longer than ideal and be conservative about extensions elsewhere until the prospects establish themselves a little better.  I think there's a competitive opportunity that the team is already into that's worth exploiting. I think ownership is very happy to have Elias on board and they're not inclined to force him to do anything.  I also think Rubenstein's demonstrated business prowess is great enough to assume that he has had plenty enough time to come to a mutual understanding with Elias as to goals.
    • We need a RH O’hearn…in addition to Westburg. At least 3 batters that will push up the pitch count and cause damage in the top 5 of the lineup.
    • Boy,  that Jackson Merrill is a good young player that is playing his best ball down the season stretch and in the playoffs.   He's only 21.  I guess some young guys are able to play up to the pressure.   Who could have guessed that?
    • I’m aware.   You are arguing something im Not.
    • What agreement? The agreement you are talking about happened as a result of the move.  The MASN agreement would not have existed if Angelos had gone to court to block the move.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...