Is Elias the best GM in team history?

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Hank Peters 12 years (1975-87)

Hank Peters seems to get a fair amount of love for overseeing the successes of that era, but:

• This was the timeframe where the O's farm system went from epic to abysmal
• This was the dawn of free agency, and for the first 5-6 years the Orioles acted like it was a passing fad so they hemmoraged stars while Earl had to cobble together lineups with Pat Kelly and Benny Ayala. And starting in '84 or so they signed some free agents, but only 34-year-olds.

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Hank Peters seems to get a fair amount of love for overseeing the successes of that era, but:

• This was the timeframe where the O's farm system went from epic to abysmal
• This was the dawn of free agency, and for the first 5-6 years the Orioles acted like it was a passing fad so they hemmoraged stars while Earl had to cobble together lineups with Pat Kelly and Benny Ayala. And starting in '84 or so they signed some free agents, but only 34-year-olds.

Not clear that the owners were willing to spend on free agents.  So I’m not sure that’s on Peters.  

One of the reasons Baltimore loved the ‘77-‘83 Orioles so much was precisely because they were competing without free agents.   It gave them an underdog status that Baltimoreans just loved.  

Peters did make some great moves: the big ‘76 trade with the Yankees that brought McGregor, Martinez, Dempsey and others, drafting Cal Ripken and Mike Boddicker, signing Steve Stone.  Most of those moves were early in his tenure. 


 

[DrungoHazewood]

Just now, Frobby said:

Not clear that the owners were willing to spend on free agents.  So I’m not sure that’s on Peters.  

One of the reasons Baltimore loved the ‘77-‘83 Orioles so much was precisely because they were competing without free agents.   It gave them an underdog status that Baltimoreans just loved.  

Peters did make some great moves: the big ‘76 trade with the Yankees that brought McGregor, Martinez, Dempsey and others, drafting Cal Ripken and Mike Boddicker, signing Steve Stone.  Most of those moves were early in his tenure. 


 

That's probably true, the owners have more of the blame than the GMs. As late as the 1987 collusion scandal it was clear the owners as a group treated free agency as something that they'd eventually get rid of, and they could go back to the reserve clause as God intended.

[wildcard]

Elias said the other day that GMs and organizations are measured by how much they win.   Harry Dalton (1966-1971) made the trade for Frank Robinson that put the O's over the top.   His teams won the World Series in 1966 and 1970.  Additionally they went to the WS in 1969 and 1971.   They won 100 games three years in a row.   1969-1971.

That is a pretty high bar for Elias to reach.   I will enjoy watching him try.

Edited September 29, 2023 by wildcard

[Ridgway22]

Today, and it's like making a pronouncement when you're buzzed on your first really good tequila, but yes, I think this is the best tequila, errrrrr, general manager of at least the duration of my fandom.

[Moose Milligan]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

You didn’t name the one I’d pick, Paul Richards.  He established the entire “Oriole Way.”  The team didn’t have a winning season until the year he turned over the reins to MacPhail (though Richards remained the manager), but he basically built the foundation that underlaid the team having 24 winning seasons in 26 years.

I do think that Elias is right up there, though.  The organization was in desperate straits when he took the reins, and now they are well-positioned for a long run of success. 

I keep forgetting that Paul Richards was the GM before he was the manager for some reason.  Good call.

[Too Tall]

When it comes to building from scratch, Elias rivals Paul Richards. And, he did it faster in what one could argue as a more complex time. I'm not ready to anoint him best ever ( there are those that build and those that sustain so we have time yet to really evaluate) but I do think he should be MLB Executive of The Year. THIS YEAR!

[Just Regular]

3 hours ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

Obviously it could just be Elias caught up in the moment or playing good professional politics, but I thought it was a good sign. 

He is good at that, which helps him in his job.    In the festivities, Kevin Brown asked him a broad overview question about what strategic principles brought you here.

It was towards the end of the boiler plate talking points, but I swear I think I heard Elias say "health care" as part of the answer.

On the OP, I don't think before he's closed any contracts bigger than Kyle Gibson's that he's the best ever anymore than we could say Grayson Rodriguez is the best Arm in team history, or Gunnar Henderson is the best Bat.

Is he doing anything Luhnow/Friedman of McKinsey/hedge fund ultra efficiency practices didn't do?    Draft Adley and Holliday, of course.

[George Zuverink]

5 hours ago, Too Tall said:

When it comes to building from scratch, Elias rivals Paul Richards. And, he did it faster in what one could argue as a more complex time. I'm not ready to anoint him best ever ( there are those that build and those that sustain so we have time yet to really evaluate) but I do think he should be MLB Executive of The Year. THIS YEAR!

It is a more complex time, but I would also argue that Elias has had more tools than Richards had - the draft, tanking , international signings, free agency, compensatory picks, competitive  balance picks, revenue sharing, Tommy John surgery, the Rule V draft,  greater acceptance of non-white players, etc.q

[Just Regular]

Here's a nice account of Paul Richards and The Orioles Way.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/the-oriole-way/

Thomasville, GA looks not far from DL Hall's home in Valdosta.

Jay Jaffe linked to this in his Brooks remembrance.    Befitting someone who's written a book on Hall of Famers, he has some good details in his as well.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/brooks-robinson-1937-2023-the-standard-setter-at-third-base/

I enjoyed the observation Brooks hit 300/320/500 in ~150 postseason PA - it hit me as a triple slash Adam Jones would have been proud of.

[Too Tall]

J R thank you!!!!! I strongly suggest anyone who didn't have the pleasure to live through the early growing years of the Orioles, read The Oriole Way link. Brought back so many great memories for me. I dream we are now on the same path!!!!!!!!!!

[foxfield]

Mike Elias has entered the conversation as best GM. The rebuild has been a smashing unrivaled success. But to rise to #1 Elias is going to need to win a WS.  Or at the very least make it to two. 
 

However given the state of the organization when he arrived and where it is today…he is in the upper echelon now. 

Edit to add that Harry Dalton is probably at #1.  However he inherited a pretty strong team and made it elite.  Paul Richards is #1a for building the Oriole Way.

Elias had a tougher job, with some components his predecessors did not have.  But I have no issue with making favorable comparisons for the job Elias has done to date.  We always said, how he did once the team became competitive would be how he was judged.  His two years of being competitive look pretty outstanding. But there is work to do to reach the top.

Edited September 30, 2023 by foxfield

[OriolesMagic83]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:08 AM, LookinUp said:

Good point. Longevity of results probably matters more. You could argue that Elias could leave after we win the WS this year, we win another couple in the next 5 years, and he gets the lion's share of the credit and becomes the best GM in our team's history.

Winning the World Series is having one of the best teams and getting lucky.  It's not like in 1966 when the O's won the pennant.  You have to win 3 series vs very good teams.

[Frobby]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:47 AM, Just Regular said:

 

It was towards the end of the boiler plate talking points, but I swear I think I heard Elias say "health care" as part of the answer.

I also heard that.  I assume it referred to the O’s medical and training staff, rather than whatever insurance plan they have.  

[jabba72]

If the O's win 102, im going to be majorly impressed with the job Elias has done this year. Of course a World Series appearance or win would be an even bigger accomplishment. 

Elias rebuilding the prospect depth is phenomenal.  This team is setup to be competitive for the next decade, so I tend to think he will be the greatest O's GM if he stays that long.