Cease vs everyone else

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’d say with 20/20 hindsight, I’d give it a C or a C+.  The O’Hearn and Coulombe pickups turned out to be pretty meaningful and Gibson probably exceeded most people’s expectations.  

Good point about DC and OHearn but that’s using hindsight.

Im not sure how Gibson exceeded expectations.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Good point about DC and OHearn but that’s using hindsight.

Im not sure how Gibson exceeded expectations.

Folks had really low expectations?  I wasn't expecting 192 innings. 

[interloper]

Can't wait until he goes to the Braves or whoever so we can talk about something else. 

[RZNJ]

@Chicago White Sox

 

How can you say this “Norby is younger than Ortiz, but doesn’t fit the style of play that Getz seems to be prioritizing.  I’d be shocked if he was the #2 piece in a Cease trade.”  
 

And then predict and endorse a trade where Michael Busch is the 1st or 2nd piece.

Baseball America

“The Dodgers drafted Busch as a first baseman and attempted to turn him into a second baseman, but his lack of range makes him a liability without the help of a shift. He’s a below-average runner who lacks quickness and agility and is a below-average defender at the keystone. He began playing third base in 2023 and started most of his games there in Triple-A and the majors. He shows a good feel for body positioning and reading angles at the hot corner but is still a below-average defender learning the nuances of the position. Busch has also seen time in left field, but his best position remains first base. He has below-average arm strength.“

Edited November 30, 2023 by RZNJ

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Folks had really low expectations?  I wasn't expecting 192 innings. 

Most starts in his career. Best WAR since 2021. Third most innings in his career. 15 wins. Bunch of Quality Starts. 

I'd say if that doesn't exceed your expectations, then I'm not sure what you were expecting out of Kyle Gibson. Especially for $10 million. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by interloper

[Sports Guy]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Folks had really low expectations?  I wasn't expecting 192 innings. 

If you told me he was going to be healthy all year, I would have expected somewhere near there.

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, interloper said:

Most starts in his career. Best WAR since 2021. Third most innings in his career. 15 wins. Bunch of Quality Starts. 

I'd say if that doesn't exceed your expectations, then I'm not sure what you were expecting out of Kyle Gibson. Especially for $10 million. 

All you just said there was “he was healthy for a full season”

Nothing you say here should have been unexpected if he was healthy.

[Frobby]

15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Good point about DC and OHearn but that’s using hindsight.

Im not sure how Gibson exceeded expectations.

Highest win total of his career, third highest innings total (best since 2018), tied for his 4th best fWAR season.  I think a lot of people were looking at his age and worried about a possible collapse.  

Anyway, as I said, that’s a hindsight grade.  Sometimes you can be disappointed with how an offseason went but it turns out a bit better than you thought.  I think it’s fair to say that happened last year.  It’s still the case that last offseason could have been better, and we’re hoping this one will be.  
 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

If you told me he was going to be healthy all year, I would have expected somewhere near there.

First off, healthy all year.

Secondly you, as a singular individual, do not qualify as "folks".

I'd say Gibson slightly exceeded my expectations.  He was a nice stabilizing force in the rotation that gave the team a good number of pretty functional innings.

[Too Tall]

Since we've swung from Cease to Gibson, I'll add my two cents. If EVERYONE on this board doesn't feel that Gibson exceeded what they felt about the signing last year and his contributions to the team, I surley miss remember a lot of discussion. Don't remember too many predicting 101 wins either. I sure a heck didn't. But then, I've come to realize in life some people are never wrong. That's what the wife tells me quite often.

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Too Tall said:

Since we've swung from Cease to Gibson, I'll add my two cents. If EVERYONE on this board doesn't feel that Gibson exceeded what they felt about the signing last year and his contributions to the team, I surley miss remember a lot of discussion. Don't remember too many predicting 101 wins either. I sure a heck didn't. But then, I've come to realize in life some people are never wrong. That's what the wife tells me quite often.

You’re not allowed to mention the 101 wins.   

[Just Regular]

I hope in 2024 and onwards the pitching talent is acquired such that a year's Plan A isn't 190+ innings from any Gibson types save perhaps Kremer/Irvin.     Still keeping hope post-surgical Means is a bit more than that, but if he isn't that's more of a July than offseason thing.

The overall talent level no longer aligns with Jorge Lopez "SP", Lyles or even mildly better Arms.

Gibson was kind of a Means healing bandaid the same as David Robertson or whoever the Felix healing bandaid will be.     We'll never know if Means arm had held together if Lyles alone would have been enough to show young guys what lasting 30 starts looks like.

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Too Tall said:

Since we've swung from Cease to Gibson, I'll add my two cents. If EVERYONE on this board doesn't feel that Gibson exceeded what they felt about the signing last year and his contributions to the team, I surley miss remember a lot of discussion. Don't remember too many predicting 101 wins either. I sure a heck didn't. But then, I've come to realize in life some people are never wrong. That's what the wife tells me quite often.

If Gibson was going to be healthy in 2023, everyone should have expected a lot of innings and an ERA anywhere from 4.5-5. Exceeding expectations would have been all those innings and an ERA below 4.

His career ERA was around 4.5 entering the year. 7 times in his career, his ErA was 4.5 or higher. 3 times it was under 4 and only twice did he did that over a full season worth of starts.

Many of the stats people are mentioning are counting stats that are a result of him being healthy. You can’t even say they are all result of him being good because he had some horrible stretches and was still sent out every 5th day.

So yea, unless your expectation was that he would be hurt and could post up every 5th day, I’m not sure what expectations he truly exceeded.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, RZNJ said:

@Chicago White Sox

On the WS board.  He likes this package.  Interesting.   Where’s the defense you said you wanted?

1) Bold prediction, but I’m going with Cease to the Dodgers sometime Saturday afternoon for Busch, Sheehan, & Pages.

2) Interesting.  That seems like a pretty damn good package to me.  What’s your beef with the trade?

 

That’s a great question.  When I mention Getz wanting defense there are two main train of thoughts.  I think he wants to have strong defenders up the middle.  I also think he wants to move away from bad defenders in the corners like playing 1B or DH types in the OF such as Eloy, Vaughn, & Sheets or going with Burger at 3B.

The proposal you’re referencing would likely improve the defense IMO, although not in a material way.  I think Busch would immediately take over 1B where he’d be an upgrade over Vaughn.  And Pages should be an average in RF with a strong arm that needs work.   The trade doesn’t address the infield, but three of our top seven prospects are infielders in Montgomery, Ramos, & Gonzalez.

I’d love to get something based on Cowser or Kjerstad, Ortiz (which would allow you to move Montgomery to 3B if needed) and a lesser third piece, but not sure Elias is willing to do that and it’s nice getting a pitcher with Sheehan’s ceiling as well.

[Too Tall]

22 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You’re not allowed to mention the 101 wins.   

Sorry!!!! But how about some are NEVER wrong?