The worm has turned...

[rp0806]

1) There were plenty of guys we could have acquired this year without giving up a ton of prospects.

Who? As far as FAs go, this was a really weak market. I'm glad they didn't tie up a lot of money in Ryan and Konerko is way overpaid. I wish they'd signed Burnett, but it's not like he's proven that he's a top starter. I don't see that we had a lot of options for trades unless we gave up prospects.

2) The other alternative is the first true rebuilding process we have had in forever.

I agree with that, and early in the offseason I was absolutely in favor of trading Tejada, Mora, Chen, et al for prospects. But given that the FO didn't take that approach, I don't think they did a bad job of putting together a decent team for this year while preparing for the future.

[Sports Guy]

But given that the FO didn't take that approach, I don't think they did a bad job of putting together a decent team for this year while preparing for the future.

And this is true.

When you take that statement and look at it with blinders on(dont mean that in a bad way btw) and only see that, that is very true.

[underdog]

Wow this has been quite a thread! It's had everything from near fisticuffs last night to unbridled enthusiasm about the future to us being big losers forever and everything in between. Didn't see mention of Javys' homer and Matos' 2 doubles yesterday (boogiedown could've used that) but the posts were so fast and furious that I might have missed it.

When a team loses for 8 years in a row, most top free agents aren't going to want to go to that team if they have other alternatives. It is not because Flanagan and/ or Angelos are boneheads, it's because they want to be on a team that already is a winner. It's human nature. We shouldn't take it personally when a Konerko would rather be on the World Champions. We also shouldn't take it personally when Vladdy would rather be in a place with a large Hispanic presence like LA when Baltimore doesn't even have a decent Mexican restaurant. It WILL NOT BE until AFTER we have had a winning season before top FA's will want to come here. Why would these guys want a Kia when they could choose a BMW? With our record the last 8 years, we're lying to oureselves if we think we're more than a Kia.

In our division it's a harder and longer process to overcome since we have the 2 biggest spenders in the game to contend with. The only way for us to get our footing up to our competition is to have enough patience to hang in there while our farm system develops some good enough players to tip our record over .500. Then we will be able to compete for the top guys. There is no point to complaining about having to go get obvious question marks like Patterson, or guys with mediocre career numbers like Benson. Heck, neither of them chose to come here either, they were traded for. The FA's we did get (Conine, Millar) are only here because no winning team wanted them. I think these guys can help us to bridge the gap until our prospects start to bear fruit, but in the meantime, we'll just have to deal with what we have. If we can get decent years out of Markakis and Ray this year, we have made a real good push in that direction. If Cabrera and Bedard continue to develop, we could push over 80 wins. I'm just rooting for that to happen, because if it does, we'll be able to go after guys next winter that can win us a pennant.

[MP]

I am with you and Boogie as well, as far as being enthusiastic and positive.

That said, I would have written something like..

"The Worm may be turning..." or

"The Worm is turning....."

But to say the worm has turned, as in past tense, as in already, well, that is just not very accurate as it is not validated by a full season's result.

If by worm turning, all you mean is some positive changes that may lead to a successful campaign, then so be it, but I define worm turning as a winning season at season's end.

Go Birds.

I think you managed to pinpoint the exact detail that sparked the debate. By stating it factually it really invites argument.

Which comment generates more reaction:

"I think we could be better."

"We are better".

You make a great point Moscowbird, well done!

[boogidownoriole]

I think you managed to pinpoint the exact detail that sparked the debate. By stating it factually it really invites argument.

Which comment generates more reaction:

"I think we could be better."

"We are better".

You make a great point Moscowbird, well done!

Again, I didnt say how far it turned :002_scool:

[MP]

Again, I didnt say how far it turned :002_scool:

Ha!

I hope you're right about everything, boogidown.

[utvolzac]

Wow this has been quite a thread! It's had everything from near fisticuffs last night to unbridled enthusiasm about the future to us being big losers forever and everything in between. Didn't see mention of Javys' homer and Matos' 2 doubles yesterday (boogiedown could've used that) but the posts were so fast and furious that I might have missed it.

When a team loses for 8 years in a row, most top free agents aren't going to want to go to that team if they have other alternatives. It is not because Flanagan and/ or Angelos are boneheads, it's because they want to be on a team that already is a winner. It's human nature. We shouldn't take it personally when a Konerko would rather be on the World Champions. We also shouldn't take it personally when Vladdy would rather be in a place with a large Hispanic presence like LA when Baltimore doesn't even have a decent Mexican restaurant. It WILL NOT BE until AFTER we have had a winning season before top FA's will want to come here. Why would these guys want a Kia when they could choose a BMW? With our record the last 8 years, we're lying to oureselves if we think we're more than a Kia.

In our division it's a harder and longer process to overcome since we have the 2 biggest spenders in the game to contend with. The only way for us to get our footing up to our competition is to have enough patience to hang in there while our farm system develops some good enough players to tip our record over .500. Then we will be able to compete for the top guys. There is no point to complaining about having to go get obvious question marks like Patterson, or guys with mediocre career numbers like Benson. Heck, neither of them chose to come here either, they were traded for. The FA's we did get (Conine, Millar) are only here because no winning team wanted them. I think these guys can help us to bridge the gap until our prospects start to bear fruit, but in the meantime, we'll just have to deal with what we have. If we can get decent years out of Markakis and Ray this year, we have made a real good push in that direction. If Cabrera and Bedard continue to develop, we could push over 80 wins. I'm just rooting for that to happen, because if it does, we'll be able to go after guys next winter that can win us a pennant.

How about Burnett. We needed a front of the rotation starter and Burnett actually wanted to come here. PA bulks at him because of his win/loss record?

That was just inexcusable to me. Given the fact that it was a need for us and that he got a huge endorsement from Leo Mazzone, we should have been all over it. We had plenty of money to use, especially considering we went with cheap free agents like Millar, Conine, etc to fill the rest of the roster. No reason Burnett shouldn't be our #1 starter this year, IMO.

[BaltimoreTerp]

How about Burnett. We needed a front of the rotation starter and Burnett actually wanted to come here. PA bulks at him because of his win/loss record?

That was just inexcusable to me. Given the fact that it was a need for us and that he got a huge endorsement from Leo Mazzone, we should have been all over it. We had plenty of money to use, especially considering we went with cheap free agents like Millar, Conine, etc to fill the rest of the roster. No reason Burnett shouldn't be our #1 starter this year, IMO.

And we still would have needed one.

Burnett was the third best starter on his own team, has an injury history, and when he had the chance to prove himself down the stretch went 0-6 in his last seven decisions.

I'd rather go with what we have then pay at least $11 million for five years, if not more if the Blue Jays continued to bid, for potential.

[TonySoprano]

Did you ever hear the expression that one man's trash is another man's treasure? Being the "third best" starter on the Marlins doesn't mean he would be that low on the Orioles rotation. Ponson was our de facto "ace" based on his salary and if he makes the Cardinals rotation, it will be as the 5th starter.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Did you ever hear the expression that one man's trash is another man's treasure? Being the "third best" starter on the Marlins doesn't mean he would be that low on the Orioles rotation. Ponson was our de facto "ace" based on his salary and if he makes the Cardinals rotation, it will be as the 5th starter.

Fine, I'll restate:

Burnett has an injury history, and when he had the chance to prove himself down the stretch went 0-6 in his last seven decisions.

I'd rather go with what we have then pay at least $11 million for five years, if not more if the Blue Jays continued to bid, for potential.

Is it really that much better?

[TonySoprano]

Fine, I'll restate:

Burnett has an injury history, and when he had the chance to prove himself down the stretch went 0-6 in his last seven decisions.

I'd rather go with what we have then pay at least $11 million for five years, if not more if the Blue Jays continued to bid, for potential.

Is it really that much better?

No, because what it sounds like it comes down to really, is what he would cost in terms of salary. Burnett is three years younger and has had a better career than, for example, Benson, who also has an "injury history." The difference is Benson is "only" owed $15.5M over the next two seasons. The only time Benson has a year like Burnett's 2005 was back in 2000. Since then, based on his ERA+ (park-adjusted) he has been a below average, (well below average in 2003) pitcher. Mazzone was anxious to work with Burnett but I guess some here know better than him. :002_scool:

[underdog]

How about Burnett. We needed a front of the rotation starter and Burnett actually wanted to come here. PA bulks at him because of his win/loss record?

That was just inexcusable to me. Given the fact that it was a need for us and that he got a huge endorsement from Leo Mazzone, we should have been all over it. We had plenty of money to use, especially considering we went with cheap free agents like Millar, Conine, etc to fill the rest of the roster. No reason Burnett shouldn't be our #1 starter this year, IMO.

No doubt in my mind Burnett would be our OD starter if he was here. That said, he isn't worth 5/55 to me. I think the Jays will regret it before his contract is up. I've been neg repped for saying that Burnett isn't one of the premier P's in baseball, but I'll go ahead and say that he has earned his .500 career record anyway. He has put together some solid seasons statistically, good ERA, lotta K's, but I haven't seen the makeup from him that says he's the guy I want to give the ball to in a big game.

[underdog]

Fine, I'll restate:

Burnett has an injury history, and when he had the chance to prove himself down the stretch went 0-6 in his last seven decisions.

I'd rather go with what we have then pay at least $11 million for five years, if not more if the Blue Jays continued to bid, for potential.

Is it really that much better?

How can you have the audacity to mention W/L record when discussing A.J. Burnett (turning sarcasm mode off) He's a .500 pitcher with a good ERA who walked out on his team at the end of last season. The more I think about it, the more I think he took the Jays big time. Bedard or Cabrera will put up better #'s than Burnett this year, mark my words. Maybe both, but at least one of them.

[BaltimoreTerp]

No, because what it sounds like it comes down to really, is what he would cost in terms of salary. Burnett is three years younger and has had a better career than, for example, Benson, who also has an "injury history." The difference is Benson is "only" owed $15.5M over the next two seasons. The only time Benson has a year like Burnett's 2005 was back in 2000. Since then, based on his ERA+ (park-adjusted) he has been a below average, (well below average in 2003) pitcher. Mazzone was anxious to work with Burnett but I guess some here know better than him. :002_scool:

The question is, is it worth a $55 million risk because our pitching coach was anxious to work with him?

It is one thing to talk that way about our own pitchers, or retreads who are cheap and he has a track record of turning around. It's another to overspend on a hunch.

Besides, I'm not at all saying I know more then Mazzone, and I'm sure he would be insulted that you are insinuating that. I'm just expressing my own opinion, which was apparently shared by the front office which wasn't willing to take that risk either.

Unless some here know better then them

[BaltimoreTerp]

How can you have the audacity to mention W/L record when discussing A.J. Burnett (turning sarcasm mode off) He's a .500 pitcher with a good ERA who walked out on his team at the end of last season. The more I think about it, the more I think he took the Jays big time. Bedard or Cabrera will put up better #'s than Burnett this year, mark my words. Maybe both, but at least one of them.

It is one thing to bring up career W/L, or the record over a full season. However, when you have a collapse like that when you are in a playoff race AND about to go on the free agent market, that should raise a red flag the size of the Star-Spangled Banner.

His ERA went from 2.90 to 3.44, including a Ponsonian 5.93 in September, and averaged 5 2/3 innings a start.

That isn't a good sign.