Jackson Holliday 2024

[OnlyOneOriole]

He throws like he has never thrown a baseball in his life.

Turrets?

[survivedc]

3 hours ago, Say O! said:

Yeah I am super puzzled as to how any minor league scout would have believed he could stick at SS.  He looks average at best so far at 2B. 

Well he's not playing SS, he's playing 2B. They aren't the same. 

That said, while he may never be a gold glover over there, he is going to be fine by September. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

5 minutes ago, survivedc said:

Well he's not playing SS, he's playing 2B. They aren't the same. 

That said, while he may never be a gold glover over there, he is going to be fine by September. 

Even 1B will be difficult at first for a player who has never played the position.

 

[banks703]

8 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Even 1B will be difficult at first for a player who has never played the position.

 

Except he’s played 68 games over his minor league career at 2B. Do we legitimately think that they threw him out there without any work at the position in between games? Do we also think that they didn’t tell him going into the offseason that he would be playing 2B going forward?

This narrative that he’s struggling on defense because he’s new to the position is just plain wrong. There is an article (admittedly I am not able to find it) pre-draft that he was quoted as saying that he grew up a 2B and felt most comfortable there. That he was moved to SS either his junior or sophomore year in high school. So, 2B is not new to him. He’s just not a good (major league caliber) defensive player.

We have to stop with this excuse because it is pretty weak. He stinks as a MLB infielder. So what. They’re willing to stomach the defense for his hitting. Fine. He will get better. But let’s please stop with this “he’s new to the position” crap because it’s just that. Crap. 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Except he’s played 68 games over his minor league career at 2B. Do we legitimately think that they threw him out there without any work at the position in between games? Do we also think that they didn’t tell him going into the offseason that he would be playing 2B going forward?

This narrative that he’s struggling on defense because he’s new to the position is just plain wrong. There is an article (admittedly I am not able to find it) pre-draft that he was quoted as saying that he grew up a 2B and felt most comfortable there. That he was moved to SS either his junior or sophomore year in high school. So, 2B is not new to him. He’s just not a good (major league caliber) defensive player.

We have to stop with this excuse because it is pretty weak. He stinks as a MLB infielder. So what. They’re willing to stomach the defense for his hitting. Fine. He will get better. But let’s please stop with this “he’s new to the position” crap because it’s just that. Crap. 

I will stop saying it if you can produce that article.  Never heard that before. 

As Elias said the other day, he’s a SS and always has been one and has played SS his whole life.

And btw, second is still new to him recently. Even if he played there when he was 14 y/o, it’s a wee bit different playing it at a pro level vs travel baseball (and I don’t believe he played second base for his travel team)

 

Edited August 9 by Sports Guy

[terpoh]

32 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I will stop saying it if you can produce that article.  Never heard that before. 

As Elias said the other day, he’s a SS and always has been one and has played SS his whole life.

And btw, second is still new to him recently. Even if he played there when he was 14 y/o, it’s a wee bit different playing it at a pro level vs travel baseball (and I don’t believe he played second base for his travel team)

 

Exactly. Hearing some people talk about Jackson’s defense makes me believe that they have never played the sport before.

Playing 2B is very different than playing SS. There is no guarantee that says just because someone plays SS, that they will be able to play 2B or 3B better. The position is new to Jackson, he has always been a SS. Hopefully he adjusts and can figure it out, but maybe he doesn’t and he’s just a stronger SS. We are spoiled because of Mateo’s versatility and ability to switch and be elite defensively. It’s not that simple. 
 

same thing with Mayo. People see he’s not 20 year old manny machado defensively and want to complain. We saw the same thing with Cowser in the OF last year. These things take time,  Offensively and defensively. 
 

One thing that has been true for every single one of our super prospects, is that even with the early struggles they have made adjustments and are all much better after they do. Some of them it took a reset in the minors (Holliday, Cowser, Grayson), some of them figured it out with the Orioles (Gunnar, Adley, Westburg). I think the same will be true with Jackson’s defense and mayo overall 

Edited August 9 by terpoh

[Bemorewins]

44 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Except he’s played 68 games over his minor league career at 2B. Do we legitimately think that they threw him out there without any work at the position in between games? Do we also think that they didn’t tell him going into the offseason that he would be playing 2B going forward?

This narrative that he’s struggling on defense because he’s new to the position is just plain wrong. There is an article (admittedly I am not able to find it) pre-draft that he was quoted as saying that he grew up a 2B and felt most comfortable there. That he was moved to SS either his junior or sophomore year in high school. So, 2B is not new to him. He’s just not a good (major league caliber) defensive player.

We have to stop with this excuse because it is pretty weak. He stinks as a MLB infielder. So what. They’re willing to stomach the defense for his hitting. Fine. He will get better. But let’s please stop with this “he’s new to the position” crap because it’s just that. Crap. 

Observation - You seem very down on Holliday’s defensive abilities and have consistently asserted the notion that he needs to move to “the grass” (outfield).

Question - For who? Do you think Mayo is a better defensive player? 

Observation - I haven’t noticed the same harsh judgment that you offer on Holliday’s shortcomings to Mayo.

Question - When you were observing Holliday in the Minors were you assessing Mayo with the same level of scrutiny? 

[banks703]

23 minutes ago, terpoh said:

Exactly. Hearing some people talk about Jackson’s defense makes me believe that they have never played the sport before.

Playing 2B is very different than playing SS. There is no guarantee that says just because someone plays SS, that they will be able to play 2B or 3B better. The position is new to Jackson, he has always been a SS. Hopefully he adjusts and can figure it out, but maybe he doesn’t and he’s just a stronger SS. We are spoiled because of Mateo’s versatility and ability to switch and be elite defensively. It’s not that simple. 
 

same thing with Mayo. People see he’s not 20 year old manny machado defensively and want to complain. We saw the same thing with Cowser in the OF last year. These things take time,  Offensively and defensively. 
 

One thing that has been true for every single one of our super prospects, is that even with the early struggles they have made adjustments and are all much better after they do. Some of them it took a reset in the minors (Holliday, Cowser, Grayson), some of them figured it out with the Orioles (Gunnar, Adley, Westburg). I think the same will be true with Jackson’s defense and mayo overall 

Actually, I did play at a pretty high level and remain involved in the game in scouting college and high school kids. So, yeah.

Go back and read my post history about JH... all the way back to when they drafted him. I posted then that he was likely to end up at 2B and that I didn't rule out a move to the OF. When every one was poopooing on Cowser as an OF I am the only poster who defended his ability to play CF. There's more examples in my post history (not to pat myself on the back or toot my own horn but to show that I do know what I'm talking about). 

You all can wear your 1:1 rose colored glasses all that you want and make whatever excuses that you want to make for him but he's not a good defensive infielder and everything that I posted about him (not just his arm) we are seeing. The kids in A+ are already better defenders than he is right now. Yes, he's 20 years old and he is going to improve. My hope for him is that he can be Jose Altuve serviceable at 2B but he's never going to be a good defensive SS and I still think that a move to the OF may be best for him. The O's are obviously going to give him every opportunity to stick in the IF and when they speak about him, of course they're going to say all of the right things to keep his confidence. Every team does this with their young players. Look what the Pads did with Tatis Jr. Look what they did with their own Jackson. Did the Padres come out and say publicly that Fernando Tatis Jr. is a shit defender at SS so we have to move him to the OF? Of course they didn't. They said it was in the best interest of the player and team to limit his injury potential, etc. etc.

Those of us who refuse to acknowledge that these guys have flaws are so funny to me. It's perfectly fine if he isn't a good infield defender. His bat is why he was taken 1:1, not his glove and certainly not his arm. The posters who take the criticism of JH so personal is hilarious to me. It's almost like instead of accepting the mere suggestion that he can't play good defense at SS, is calling someone's sister a whore. 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Actually, I did play at a pretty high level and remain involved in the game in scouting college and high school kids. So, yeah.

Go back and read my post history about JH... all the way back to when they drafted him. I posted then that he was likely to end up at 2B and that I didn't rule out a move to the OF. When every one was poopooing on Cowser as an OF I am the only poster who defended his ability to play CF. There's more examples in my post history (not to pat myself on the back or toot my own horn but to show that I do know what I'm talking about). 

You all can wear your 1:1 rose colored glasses all that you want and make whatever excuses that you want to make for him but he's not a good defensive infielder and everything that I posted about him (not just his arm) we are seeing. The kids in A+ are already better defenders than he is right now. Yes, he's 20 years old and he is going to improve. My hope for him is that he can be Jose Altuve serviceable at 2B but he's never going to be a good defensive SS and I still think that a move to the OF may be best for him. The O's are obviously going to give him every opportunity to stick in the IF and when they speak about him, of course they're going to say all of the right things to keep his confidence. Every team does this with their young players. Look what the Pads did with Tatis Jr. Look what they did with their own Jackson. Did the Padres come out and say publicly that Fernando Tatis Jr. is a shit defender at SS so we have to move him to the OF? Of course they didn't. They said it was in the best interest of the player and team to limit his injury potential, etc. etc.

Those of us who refuse to acknowledge that these guys have flaws are so funny to me. It's perfectly fine if he isn't a good infield defender. His bat is why he was taken 1:1, not his glove and certainly not his arm. The posters who take the criticism of JH so personal is hilarious to me. It's almost like instead of accepting the mere suggestion that he can't play good defense at SS, is calling someone's sister a whore. 

Again…”he’s never going to be a good defensive SS”..a statement you recently said you never said…but yet you keep saying it.

In just glad at age 20, he has no chance of getting better defensively. This is essentially your stance. 

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I will stop saying it if you can produce that article.  Never heard that before. 

As Elias said the other day, he’s a SS and always has been one and has played SS his whole life.

And btw, second is still new to him recently. Even if he played there when he was 14 y/o, it’s a wee bit different playing it at a pro level vs travel baseball (and I don’t believe he played second base for his travel team)

 

I have not tried to look for it since @Frobby asked about it over the break last year. You know that. I posted above that I was unable to find it and I have posted about it in exchanges with you before but good job using it to hold your position. 

He's been playing 2B with the org since he was drafted, in 2022. So, if three seasons of getting reps at 2B (and preparing over the winter to play 2B and playing there almost exclusively for 2/3 of this season) new to you, then I shutter to think of what an old t-shirt from your wardrobe resembles.

You are never going to admit that you are wrong (about anything but especially this) which is why I stopped engaging with you on it. When I offered an OH ban-bet to you about JH ending up at 2B this year, you went silent. You offer no actual insight other than he was drafted 1:1 as a SS so he's a SS and because the GM says GM things about him being a SS, it means something when he says it about JH but not Joey Ortiz. 

[banks703]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Again…”he’s never going to be a good defensive SS”..a statement you recently said you never said…but yet you keep saying it.

In just glad at age 20, he has no chance of getting better defensively. This is essentially your stance. 

I've not once ever posted that I didn't post that. He's. Never. Going. To. Be. A Good. Defensive. SS. Try your gaslighting on someone else, bub. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, banks703 said:

I have not tried to look for it since @Frobby asked about it over the break last year. You know that. I posted above that I was unable to find it and I have posted about it in exchanges with you before but good job using it to hold your position. 

He's been playing 2B with the org since he was drafted, in 2022. So, if three seasons of getting reps at 2B (and preparing over the winter to play 2B and playing there almost exclusively for 2/3 of this season) new to you, then I shutter to think of what an old t-shirt from your wardrobe resembles.

You are never going to admit that you are wrong (about anything but especially this) which is why I stopped engaging with you on it. When I offered an OH ban-bet to you about JH ending up at 2B this year, you went silent. You offer no actual insight other than he was drafted 1:1 as a SS so he's a SS and because the GM says GM things about him being a SS, it means something when he says it about JH but not Joey Ortiz. 

I know nothing about this article.  No idea why you say “I know that”. I have never heard this before.

What am I wrong about?  Your utter stupidity that he can never improve is just that…stupidity. If this is still an issue 2-3 years from now, I will gladly say you were right and I was wrong.

You act as if what you say is supposed to matter. You say you do some scouting. None of us know if you are telling the truth. We have no idea who you are and there is no reason for us to think your opinion should matter over all scouts and people in and around the game..including the Os themselves.

I agree that you were right about his arm strength being an issue. That’s fine. But the rest of it is just bs at this point.

You have a belief that he will never be good. That’s fine. But you aren’t right about that until it happens..just as I’m not right he will be good until it happens.

My issue with you has been and continues to be your insistence that he will never improve. I don’t have any issue with your assessment now. I am not arguing with you on that whatsoever. 

[OriolesUpAndDowns]

The throw from 2B to 1B is definitely a different angle and the timing is also different.  With that being said though, he’s a professional ball player with an extreme talent, he can and should get better fairly quick over there. If this is still happening beginning of next season, then I’ll be worried.  
 

I’ve always been intrigued by him in the OF and I’m curious if he could handle LF. That would allow Cowser to take over full time in CF.  

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I've not once ever posted that I didn't post that. He's. Never. Going. To. Be. A Good. Defensive. SS. Try your gaslighting on someone else, bub. 

This is just a lie. We literally had this discussion a few weeks ago..pages 152-156 or so.

 

[banks703]

47 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Observation - You seem very down on Holliday’s defensive abilities and have consistently asserted the notion that he needs to move to “the grass” (outfield).

Question - For who? Do you think Mayo is a better defensive player? 

Observation - I haven’t noticed the same harsh judgment that you offer on Holliday’s shortcomings to Mayo.

Question - When you were observing Holliday in the Minors were you assessing Mayo with the same level of scrutiny? 

Response - Needs? No. I think it's possible and may end up being the best move for both him and the team but needs is a strong word that I have never used as it pertains to a move to the OF. I've just never felt that he profiles as a SS, much less a good defender at SS and was adamant that he would end up at 2B because of the IF positions, that's where his physical skills profile best. I still think that a move to the OF is possible. 

Answer - It's not about moving him for someone else. It's about fielding the best team both offensively and defensively. Mayo to 3B, Westy to 2B is in my eyes the better defensive lineup. Westy is the more sure-thing infield defender on the right side, Gunnar's arm and range can makeup for some of Mayo's limitations. It's easy to cite a flaw in that logic when Gunnar was kicking and throwing it around for a couple of weeks but to me, with the players in the org for the next four years, that's the best infield alignment. That pushes JH to the OF. Could that change? Certainly but that's how I see it. 

Answer - I've been pretty critical of Coby's play on defense but the criticism of him isn't about ability as it is with JH. I just don't see a good infielder defender in JH's profile. I think that Coby can play a Troy Glaus level at 3B, which would be good enough with a premiere defender playing next to him. 

Answer - Of course. Mayo has many holes in his game but I think that his chances of improving enough at 3B to stick there long-term with the O's are slightly better than JH's chances of sticking in the infield. That's my feeling not necessarily because of the two of them individually but because of the players in the org.