Cal thinks Holiday moved to fast through the system

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

 

"I beg to differ, sir!"

The robot strike zone has been an issue that was highlighted as a new recent adjustment hitters have to make to deal with the ever changing strike zones of the MLB umps. 

The issues with advanced scouting and its impact on young hitters has also been pointed out. Guy come up now and have had nearly every tendency and swing inefficiency well described and documented from their early minor league games. Rhapsodo and trackman were never seen in MiLB parks in the eighties. Now they are ubiquitous. 

Then there is the profound difference in the quality and velocity of pitching. Guys weren't throwing 104 mph FB in the MLB in 1982. Nor, for that matter, were they throwing 95 mph "splinters." The recent NY Times article that was posted earlier in the thread discusses this. 

The game has fundamentally changed since the eighties. 

Hopefully less use of steroids and amphetamines as well.

[RZNJ]

57 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There's this idea that prospects are rushed nowadays, not like back when everything was good and right with the world and everybody spent a year or two at each level finely honing their craft before getting called up.

That's a total fiction. It's always been the case that players were promoted when they were better than the folks ahead of them. And in the past that was often much more quickly than today. A few years before Cal was drafted David Clyde made 18 starts for the Rangers the year he graduated from high school at the age of 18. Al Kaline never played a minute in the minors, neither did Sandy Koufax, or Bob Horner. Griffey Jr and ARod had fewer minor league PAs than Holliday. Robin Yount was starting at short almost the whole year for the Brewers at 18, despite OPSing .622. Ben McDonald had nine minor league innings under his belt when the O's called him up. Babe Ruth played 46 minor league games. Mantle was in the majors at 19, after just 40 games in AAA.

Holliday has a minor league OPS of .932, mostly as a teenager facing much older competition. I don't really care what Cal says, the idea he was rushed is hindsight heavily flavored by a poor week-and-a-half worth of ABs. He'll be back shortly and he'll be fine.

I listened to the clip and it’s not as critical or forceful as I was expecting by the posts I see here.  He was asked why Holliday struggled.   He said he might have needed more time in AAA.  He might have been affected by the amount of attention.   It is hindsight and he doesn’t pretend it’s anything other than trying to answer the question after the fact.   It’s a nothing burger.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

I listened to the clip and it’s not as critical or forceful as I was expecting by the posts I see here.  He was asked why Holliday struggled.   He said he might have needed more time in AAA.  He might have been affected by the amount of attention.   It is hindsight and he doesn’t pretend it’s anything other than trying to answer the question after the fact.   It’s a nothing burger.

I don't think anyone is expressing a very strong opinion on the topic.

No one seems up in arms about it.

[OriolesMagic83]

17 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

If Cal could have done like Kaline and got the ~1900 minor league PA he took in the Show, he'd be a strong 2nd to Pete Rose on the plate appearances list.

Kiko Garcia did go Rick Dempsey nuts in the 1979 World Series, except his team lost.

Ripken v. Kiko in the '79 postseason would be kind of like Holliday v. Mateo for the '24 postseason.

Any 7 games, I am confident Jorge Mateo can do anything Kiko Garcia or Rick Dempsey could.

Did Rick Dempsey ever have an inside the park home run.  If he did, I feel that multiple people would have to fall down, probably at least 3.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Did Rick Dempsey ever have an inside the park home run.  If he did, I feel that multiple people would have to fall down, probably at least 3.

Nope.

Would you believe he only had one walk off HR?

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/home_run.php?p=dempsri01

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think anyone is expressing a very strong opinion on the topic.

No one seems up in arms about it.

Did you not say you are not in favor of him questioning the FO publicly?  LOL

He did nothing of the sort.

He didn’t question the process.  He tried to make sense of why Holliday struggled which is the same answer Elias and everyone else gave.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Nope.

Would you believe he only had one walk off HR?

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/home_run.php?p=dempsri01

Yes.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Did you not say you are not in favor of him questioning the FO publicly?  LOL

He did nothing of the sort.

He didn’t question the process.  He tried to make sense of why Holliday struggled which is the same answer Elias and everyone else gave.

I did.  I don't think he should.

But I was far from strident in tone.

Just said I didn't think it was appropriate for someone in his role.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I did.  I don't think he should.

But I was far from strident in tone.

Just said I didn't think it was appropriate for someone in his role.

You listen to that clip and your take is that he’s questioning the FO?

No problem.  Agree to disagree.

[bpilktree]

I was gonna post a thread about that in general not just Orioles though.  The last 7 years or so if you look at the top 10 prospects those that were brought up by 21 or before seemed to struggle once they got to the majors and some have completely fizzled out.  Granted there is exceptions but just as a majority a lot of the younger hitters who got to the majors seemed to come up short of reaching the hype they came to majors with.  

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

I was gonna post a thread about that in general not just Orioles though.  The last 7 years or so if you look at the top 10 prospects those that were brought up by 21 or before seemed to struggle once they got to the majors and some have completely fizzled out.  Granted there is exceptions but just as a majority a lot of the younger hitters who got to the majors seemed to come up short of reaching the hype they came to majors with.  

Is the rate for the 21 and under group statistically higher than the guys promoted at 22 or above?  (not that I think you have a ton of top 10 guys debuting at 22)

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I of course was in the majors at 20, it wasn't too young for me, you understand, but Jackson....

 

 

I'm not in favor of a junior member of the ownership group questioning the FO publicly.

It isn't as if he called them to the floor of course but still, I don't think it's appropriate.

You could interpret Cal's statement as, "it was the right decision at the time and we all supported it, but in hindsight, maybe he moved too fast." I think that's pretty obvious and not controversial. Hopefully Cal didn't mean anything more by it.

[harp6]

Cal is talking about someone being rushed to the majors?  He must have a short memory.  Cal didn't start very well himself.   He was 5 for 39 in 1981 and then started out 1982 going 5 for 56.  That is 10 for 95 to start his career.  I remember the story of how Reggie Jackson straightened a struggling, young Ripken, so I looked up the story of the start of Cal's rookie season in 1982.  So if advice from Jackson broke Ripken out of a slump in 1982, maybe Ripken should have some advice for Jackson in 2024.  That statement might fry a couple of brains on here.  Ripken turned out just fine, so we should not be worried about Jackson Holliday.  

https://baseball.fandom.com/wiki/Cal_Ripken_Jr.

He homered in his first at-bat on Opening Day and then fell into a deep slump going 4 for 55. Apparently worried that he may be sent down to the minor leagues, a May 1 talk with Reggie Jackson at third base during a game seemed to help Ripken improve for the rest of the season. After the talk, Cal raised his average from .141 to as high as .284 before ending with a .264 average. 

Edited May 18 by harp6

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

The late 1970s/early 1980s in the minor leagues is the experience on which Cal is basing his assessment. I sense a bit of primacy bias here. There have been many recent articles talking about how different AAA is now compared to the past. I'm not certain I find his opinion to be all that valuable in this circumstance.

Now, @Tony-OH; your opinion on whether you think Jackson was promoted too quickly would be interesting to me. 

This was my thought after last season in his scouting profile, "With the Orioles currently stacked with second base and shortstops, they can take it a bit slow and allow him to physically mature in AAA next year if there is not an immediate need. We could see the Orioles giving him the Gunnar Henderson treatment by bringing him up late in August so he's available for a playoff roster, but not giving him enough PAs to lose his rookie status for 2025."

In this offseason though, Elias said Holliday had a real chance to make the team and then he went out and had a fairly good spring (though with a lot of whiff). I kind of thought maybe I had underestimated him and knowing that the Orioles have more data than I had, I kinda of came to the assessment that the only reason he was sent back was to game his clock.

Then he put up good numbers in AAA and it really looked like that was the reason. Then his absolutely disastrous, almost unprecedented immediate failure at the major league level for a any hitting prospect, not to mention he was supposedly the #1 prospects in all of baseball.

Since being rightfully returned to AAA, Holliday has slashed .235/.395/.397/.792 in 86 PAs over 18 games, so not exactly making the Orioles look bad for sending him back. 

I think sometimes we all forgot that last season he went through a pretty long spell in Aberdeen where he did hit well at all, so it's not like he never had a bad spell last year despite being promoted aggressively by the Orioles. 

So whether Cal or I or anyone thinks he was rushed or not, what his numbers have shown us is that he's not ready. YET!

Holliday still hits the ball hard and he's still extremely young. He's going to be just fine and this blip will be just that, a blip in what should be a long career.

But for now, I'm fine with him getting more experience in AAA. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

2 hours ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

The late 1970s/early 1980s in the minor leagues is the experience on which Cal is basing his assessment. I sense a bit of primacy bias here. There have been many recent articles talking about how different AAA is now compared to the past. I'm not certain I find his opinion to be all that valuable in this circumstance.

Now, @Tony-OH; your opinion on whether you think Jackson was promoted too quickly would be interesting to me. 

No offense to Tony OH....who I think does an amazing job on this website and is a standup person AND is a great judge of talent.....but are we really getting to the point where we are discounting the words of a lifelong player, iron man, one of the best players of all timezzz, and Hall of Famer? 

Over an interwebz guy?

 

I am lost here....completely and utterly lost.