Loewen unimpressive again

[skipshot26]

Wow, maybe I am that good. Just kidding. I just am going by what I have been taught and what I've taught myself by watching other pitchers. To me, it's quite obvious as to why his velocity has dropped and he's had control problems. His curveball, which scouts used to tell us was an above average Major League pitch in high school, has even changed from a hard 12-6 type curve (maybe an 11:25 am to be more exact, lol) to more of a slurve like pitch.

Well I finally got to see him pitch. My observations:

1) His velocity is not all that impressive. Low 90s with decent movement.

2) Curveball doesn't fool anyone. It really doesn't break much and appears to have a low arm angle compared to his fastball.

3) If he has a changeup that he can thow for strikes I didn't see it.

4) He doesn't look comfortable on the mound. He does throw across his body but its not too exaggerated. In otherwords, it could be fixed with more attention paid to the back leg drive and the position of the plant foot.

5) He really doesn't go after guys. He nibbles around the plate. It's as if he doesn't believe he has good enough stuff to get these guys out.

I think he made a huge mistake playing the WBC. Had he come straight to the big league camp and worked with Mazzone like Kris Benson did he would have had a huge leg up on his competition. As it is, he is struggling with his mechanics big time. I really wonder if his shoulder is really okay.

[Frobby]

Unless you were exaggerating, I'd also wonder where you got those figures, since Loewen only had 27 total starts last year:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/adam-loewen.shtml

I was including his Arizona Fall League starts. Overall, last year Loewen had 33 starts, including 7 (not 8) really bad ones that came in 3 brief stretches. The rest of the time his ERA was 1.82 at Frederick and 1.67 in the AFL. If you want all the details, here is a thread where I posted them: http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30505

[NCRaven]

No disrespect intended to Gaz, who I enjoy reading, but there is generally a reason that high school coaches coach high school, and pro coaches coach pros. McGregor also has worked with JJ Johnson and Rick Stahl who are pitching pretty good, so far. I think he has a clue!

[Sports Guy]

No disrespect intended to Gaz, who I enjoy reading, but there is generally a reason that high school coaches coach high school, and pro coaches coach pros. McGregor also has worked with JJ Johnson and Rick Stahl who are pitching pretty good, so far. I think he has a clue!

But the HS coach may very well have more of an idea what is best for the player, a guy he knows and has worked with for 4 years.

[sonderweg]

I was including his Arizona Fall League starts. Overall, last year Loewen had 33 starts, including 7 (not 8) really bad ones that came in 3 brief stretches. The rest of the time his ERA was 1.82 at Frederick and 1.67 in the AFL. If you want all the details, here is a thread where I posted them: http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30505

Oh, okay - that makes sense.

I watched Loewen last year at Frederick and I had the same general observations as Skipshot did earlier. Even in his good starts, he nibbled. He would have excellent start, statistically speaking, but only go five innings because he nibbled at the plate and racked up 100 pitches rather quickly. If he were aggressive on a regular basis - and "regular" is the key word here - none of us would be having this conversation on this thread.

[B-more]

No disrespect intended to Gaz, who I enjoy reading, but there is generally a reason that high school coaches coach high school, and pro coaches coach pros. McGregor also has worked with JJ Johnson and Rick Stahl who are pitching pretty good, so far. I think he has a clue!

True but when Gaz's opinion seems to mimick what our MAJOR LEAGUE pitching coach and manager are saying, then I'll probably give more deference to him.

I wonder if any of our insiders could ask their contacts or someone could ask Roch if people in the FO have any opinions on Loewen and his mechanics while working with McGregor compared to with Mazzone has said about Loewen from spring training.

[Frobby]

Oh, okay - that makes sense.

I watched Loewen last year at Frederick and I had the same general observations as Skipshot did earlier. Even in his good starts, he nibbled. He would have excellent start, statistically speaking, but only go five innings because he nibbled at the plate and racked up 100 pitches rather quickly. If he were aggressive on a regular basis - and "regular" is the key word here - none of us would be having this conversation on this thread.

That seems like a very fair comment. It's not unusual for young pitchers to have high pitch counts, though -- just look at Bedard and Cabrera. Clearly 2006 is a critical year for Loewen and hopefully he'll be a better more polished pitcher at the end of the year than at the beginning. He made a lot of progress during 2005 compared to 2004, and hopefully he can progress as much this year. We'll see.

[Gaz]

No disrespect intended to Gaz, who I enjoy reading, but there is generally a reason that high school coaches coach high school, and pro coaches coach pros. McGregor also has worked with JJ Johnson and Rick Stahl who are pitching pretty good, so far. I think he has a clue!

None taken. I have said all along that they are the ones who know more then what I do, and that I was just confused as to why they let him (Adam), throw across his body. I'm sure McGregor is a great coach, as for myself, I have only been out of playing for 9 years, am 30 years old, and trying to learn as much as I can to better the players I do coach. I never got above my junior year in college when I blew my own arm, and my coaching then was limited. I have learned what I know through watching tv, reading books, talking to scouts and by trial and error. I enjoy teaching kids and I also enjoy learning from them. That is why I ask the questions I do...to learn and better myself and the kids.

[AgentOrange]

None taken. I have said all along that they are the ones who know more then what I do, and that I was just confused as to why they let him (Adam), throw across his body. I'm sure McGregor is a great coach, as for myself, I have only been out of playing for 9 years, am 30 years old, and trying to learn as much as I can to better the players I do coach. I never got above my junior year in college when I blew my own arm, and my coaching then was limited. I have learned what I know through watching tv, reading books, talking to scouts and by trial and error. I enjoy teaching kids and I also enjoy learning from them. That is why I ask the questions I do...to learn and better myself and the kids.

You are the man Gaz. I played college ball as well and I always thought I would give so much back to the kids. Its not that I know everything, I would teach them the best ways that I knew how to do it, and if someone else knew better than myself, I would gladly use thier advice. It sounds like you are a great coach and hopefully, one day, I will get an opportunity to do the same.

I would suppose it does help that I played almost every position, I would be able to relate a little better to each of the players when they needed me. Thanks for the insight as always, Gaz, its rare to get an opportunity to talk to a HS coach of one of our best prospects.

[McLovin]

Seriously, when Loewen wins his 200th game, we'll get to say we 'talked' to his high school coach! Pretty cool if you ask me...

[mikezpen]

I venture to say that Adam Loewen has had a zillion coaches since he signed, and gotten lots of conflicting advice. Maybe that's why his motion has changed. That doesn't help.

But I don't see enough improvement to feel confident about his being able to do the job when he comes up here next spring.He just doesn't have the control or consistency.

Yes, Loewen's talented and maybe he'll be fine. I'm sure they will go ahead, gamble that Loewen will be ok, and not trade him.All I see is Matt Riley II next spring-a wild left-hander who isn't good enough to hold down a Major League spot and not good enough to get anything back in trade (Ramon Niver anyone?).The mistake was the guaranteed Major League contract, which I'm sure was another idiotic Angelos stunt to keep from spending money.And I think it's going to cost the Orioles the opportunity to reap anything from this guy.He just won't be ready next year.

If they could package him w/some others in a trade for someone we really need, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[mikezpen]

RZNJ, saying Loewen is better than Brower and Halama is no compliment to Loewen. Neither of them is worth a plugged nickel. You don't want either of them put in a close game, and I don't think you'd want Loewen there, either. I mean-would you?

I've seen nothing in Loewen's career that leads me to believe he's going to be successful.He's just another arm that can't hit the side of a barn half the time.

NO, I'm not sure he'll fail. But apparently there are quite a few here who are dead sure he'll magically walk out there next spring and be a polished hurler. And they are already making plans to attend his HOF induction.Sorry, I don't see it.

Not knowing for sure but seeing a lot of bad signs with this guy, I'd trade him.

But I tell you what I would do with Loewen if they don't trade him-and this is an out of the box suggestion.I'd promote him to Baltimore for awhile and get him some quality time w/Mazzone.Also, get him in a few games in non-pressure situations. Once he's got his mechanics down, Mazzone could get w/McGregor and tell him to keep reinforcing the things that Mazzone has done with him. McGregor should keep him doing the same windup, arm angle, etc. Keep the kid on one path and maybe something will click.

[Frobby]

I don't see enough improvement to feel confident about his being able to do the job when he comes up here next spring.He just doesn't have the control or consistency.

Yes, Loewen's talented and maybe he'll be fine. I'm sure they will go ahead, gamble that Loewen will be ok, and not trade him.All I see is Matt Riley II next spring-a wild left-hander who isn't good enough to hold down a Major League spot and not good enough to get anything back in trade (Ramon Niver anyone?).

Wow, that's a scary thought, and I have to admit the analogy between Loewen and Riley is a pretty good one, though Loewen hasn't shown himself to be quite the head case Riley was.

Even so, I'm not ready to toss Loewen aside.

[mikezpen]

I just see a guy that's been in the system-what-three years (?) and still has serious issues with mechanics. Maybe we need an entirely new approach and Mzzzone could be the man to provide it.

But you make a real good point, RZNJ. Flanagan and McGregor have been together since the Year I, and there could indeed be politics involved.

Frobby, I shouldn't have brought up the possibility of The Return of Ramon Nivar in a trade for Loewen. That's too scary to contemplate, and that was terribly irresponsible of me to even broach.I hope I didn't ruin your lunch. Please forgive me.

[FrontRow107]

Interesting debate.

My take is that Loewen is progressing just fine for a high school pitcher (even one taken high in the draft). The pressing issue is his contract and the major league clause. If that didn't exist, everyone would be happy with his progress. He has been making his way up the ladder but the expectations of that contract are unfair.