This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy

[HowAboutThat]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Some of us have been saying all along that the idea that all you have to do is draft bats and trade the surplus for pitching was overly simplistic.

Of course, and Elias is seeing how simplistic that is. Now we have to hope that he pivots to a better strategy.
However, I have no idea what that strategy would be? A lot of hard, throwing highschoolers? Shortstops who can’t hit that you can convert to pitching? Find outstanding throwers among the Vikings of Norway? I haven’t a clue.

That would actually be a fascinating subject for a thread.

What matters, though, is that Mike agrees with the need for change.

[Tony-OH]

13 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

We developed Bradish, Grayson, DL Hall, Wells, and Bautista under Elias. Kremer was at least partially under Elias. I agree, we've had our share of injuries, although more so this year than up until now. 

DRAFTED and developed. Out of the guys you mentioned, only Bradish and Kramer would be guys I would call "developed" by the Orioles because they looked different when they arrived in the big leagues. Both Grayson and DL, both high school pitchers drafted by Rajsich in the first round, were already top prospects when Elias came on board. 

Both have struggled with injuries at times since the Elias's crew came on board with their low pitch and innings counts, something they never had previously really.

Well was a Rule 5 guy who made the team and pitched well in relief and then as a starter. He never came through the system besides rehabs. Bautista? Bautista was able to finally control his body and harnessed his control. If you want to count him, sure. But he was pretty much always a  fastball, slider guy who threw hard but with control/command issues. 

The fact remains that the highest guy Elias ever drafted had to be traded to get major league pitching. So what did he do this year? Didn't draft a pitcher until the 4th round again and didn't draft another one until the 7th round.

To me, it's totally reasonable to question the Orioles drafting and pitching development strategies. they have not worked very well and when they have (Baumeister helping to get Eflin) Elias went right back to his drafting college hitters in the first five rounds again.

[HowAboutThat]

Is carter Baumer still a prospect? I know he’s been injured almost constantly, but I don’t know anything else about his progress or performance

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

But none of this was the point of RZNJs post. The fact though that the organization had to give him minor league pitching, to get major league pitching, goes to show the importance of having good minor league pitching prospects in the first place. 

 

The point of RZNJ’s post (as I understood it) had nothing to do with who we had to give up.  It had to do with those pitchers performing better in their new organizations than they did in ours, which raises questions about our pitching development.  

[RZNJ]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The point of RZNJ’s post (as I understood it) had nothing to do with who we had to give up.  It had to do with those pitchers performing better in their new organizations than they did in ours, which raises questions about our pitching development.  

Pretty much and I’m not even saying that their new organizations made some significant change.   As someone else mentioned, Baumeister was maybe starting to turn things around with his control before the trade.

I get a certain amount of pleasure from watching prospects emerge in our system.    Neither really was making a statement this year.   Then within a month after the trade both pitchers have the best performance of their career.    Chace even does his in AA with a fantastic performance and the salt in the wound is that BA’s write up is glowing.  94-96 with 3 plus pitch shapes.   Baumeister goes 7 innings with 0 walks and 11 strikeouts. 

Those would have given me a lot of pleasure if they were still Orioles.   That’s why I titled the thread “These are the kinds of things that drive me crazy “.

[Sports Guy]

26 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The point of RZNJ’s post (as I understood it) had nothing to do with who we had to give up.  It had to do with those pitchers performing better in their new organizations than they did in ours, which raises questions about our pitching development.  

Either way, it’s a SSS and really means very little right now.

I would rather have Eflin doing what he’s doing in the majors than what Burmeister is doing in the minors.

There are also some guys that we traded that are doing worse btw

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Pretty much and I’m not even saying that their new organizations made some significant change.   As someone else mentioned, Baumeister was maybe starting to turn things around with his control before the trade.

I get a certain amount of pleasure from watching prospects emerge in our system.    Neither really was making a statement this year.   Then within a month after the trade both pitchers have the best performance of their career.    Chace even does his in AA with a fantastic performance and the salt in the wound is that BA’s write up is glowing.  94-96 with 3 plus pitch shapes.   Baumeister goes 7 innings with 0 walks and 11 strikeouts. 

Those would have given me a lot of pleasure if they were still Orioles.   That’s why I titled the thread “These are the kinds of things that drive me crazy “.

Chace I felt really had kind of broken out this year.  There was a question whether we’d protect him in the Rule 5 draft.  I’d imagine that Philly will, now that he’s in AA.

[Tony-OH]

29 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The point of RZNJ’s post (as I understood it) had nothing to do with who we had to give up.  It had to do with those pitchers performing better in their new organizations than they did in ours, which raises questions about our pitching development.  

Right, which is why your post talking about Tampa fans being upset over Eflin and Baumeister and Chace doing ok with us with us prior to the trade, didn't make sense to me.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Right, which is why your post talking about Tampa fans being upset over Eflin and Baumeister and Chace doing ok with us with us prior to the trade, didn't make sense to me.

I was just saying that these aren’t two turds who were turned to gold by their new teams, they were already promising prospects who’ve done even better in their new orgs.  

But the counterpoint to being rueful about their improvement is that the major league pitchers we acquired also have shown improvement.   

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about.  Arguably there are two different, potentially complementary strengths of a coaching/development staff: (1) teaching young pitchers how to pitch, and (2) taking guys who already know how to pitch, and giving them tweaks that make them better.   Is it possible a team could be bad/mediocre at (1) but very good at (2)?    

 

[Tony-OH]

Just now, Frobby said:

I was just saying that these aren’t two turds who were turned to gold by their new teams, they were already promising prospects who’ve done even better in their new orgs.  

But the counterpoint to being rueful about their improvement is that the major league pitchers we acquired also have shown improvement.   

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about.  Arguably there are two different, potentially complementary strengths of a coaching/development staff: (1) teaching young pitchers how to pitch, and (2) taking guys who already know how to pitch, and giving them tweaks that make them better.   Is it possible a team could be bad/mediocre at (1) but very good at (2)?    

 

But that's not what RZNJ said, and you even admitted to what he was going for in this thread.

As for your second point, I do think the Orioles pitching guys are better at #2. Coulombe, Cano, Perez, and Webb all have been significantly better with the Orioles at the major league level than they were before. Now I haven't done the research to see how they are different, but their performances stepped up.

Of course there are a litany of pitches they've picked up that did not become better, so who is to say it was the Orioles. 

Bradish is the guy who was most changed from who he was when acquired, to who he was when he arrived in the big leagues. 

[LookitsPuck]

49 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

Is carter Baumer still a prospect? I know he’s been injured almost constantly, but I don’t know anything else about his progress or performance

Not ranked any longer. Had surgery, got back in the swing of things this year, and is back on the IL as of July. Think the issue is entirely about health. He's had a bunch of IL stints and has only pitched 49 innings over the last 3 years since being drafted. It's a damn shame, because he had a big time arm. 

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

But that's not what RZNJ said, and you even admitted to what he was going for in this thread.

Of course I admitted it, because I’d already agreed with the concern, on page 1 of this thread.   And I never said @RZNJthought or said  these players were turds.  I was just pointing out that they’re weren’t.  I think we are arguing about nothing here.  We (you, me and RZNJ) are all concerned that maybe we aren’t developing our pitching prospects as well as we could.   For me, it’s a concern but I haven’t really made up my mind.  

[LookitsPuck]

Players traded at the deadline and their performance:

Name	G	AVG	OPS	ERA	WHIP
Austin Hays	19	254	648
Mac Horvath	27	225	661
Jackson Baumeister	6			1.13	0.625
Matthew Etzel	28	235	694
Connor Norby	13	327	1.021
Kyle Stowers	30	202	587
Trey McGough	9			2.16	0.96
Seth Johnson	5			1.52	0.845
Moises Chace	5			2.59	0.863
Billy Cook	15	276	850

*For the guys in the majors, their stats from time in the majors, otherwise it's cumulative time in the minors just with that org

[RZNJ]

10 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Not ranked any longer. Had surgery, got back in the swing of things this year, and is back on the IL as of July. Think the issue is entirely about health. He's had a bunch of IL stints and has only pitched 49 innings over the last 3 years since being drafted. It's a damn shame, because he had a big time arm. 

Did he have a big time arm?   Honest question.  I don’t think he was a mid 90’s guy when drafted and I think all of the injuries prevented him from possibly developing into that.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, HowAboutThat said:

Is carter Baumer still a prospect? I know he’s been injured almost constantly, but I don’t know anything else about his progress or performance

Not for me any more.

He was supposedly healthy this year, but was throwing in the low 90s with bad offspeed stuff before being shutdown in May. He was reactivated in July and sent back to Delmarva, where he was shut down again after throwing six pitches and allowing three runs without recording an out on July 2nd. 

Unfortunately his body just won't allow him to stay healthy and compete at a high level. He seemed like a good, hard working kid. Maybe they can figure something out with him, but I would not be surprised to see him released or retire after this season.