GM Mistakes Elias/Cashman

[Moose Milligan]

3 hours ago, HowAboutThat said:

Well, as I said, it remains to be seen whether Elias will change his process, but I think it’s pretty clear that even if that process worked at one time, the team has evolved to the point where another process is necessary.

And if Elias refuses to change despite indications that change is necessary, what would you call that? Arrogance, stubbornness, something else?

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.  Changing his process?  What do you want to change about a team that won the division last year and a team that's got a great chance to win it this year?  Did you not see him trade for Burnes this past offseason?  Did you not see him shore up the bullpen at the deadline?  Have you seen him whittle Kimbrel out of the equation while our key competition for the division is still trotting out a closer with 11 blown saves?

Do I need to remind you about the litany of injuries that's plagued this team this season?  If this team suffered half the amount of injuries it's had to deal with, we're in first place by a comfortable margin.  I mean, Mountcastle is out for way more than the 10 days that he was initially put on the IL and it's like no one even notices anymore.

What are you talking about, refusing to change?  Refusing to change what, exactly?  If you're going to keep hopping up and down about how lazy the Kimbrel signing was, just stop it.  He had a hole in his closer spot, he tried to fill it and it didn't work.  And let's not forget it did work for a good chunk of the first half of the season, there were a lot of people here who thought he deserved an all-star berth.  

So what'd he do?  Instead of "refusing to change" he went out and got Dominguez and Soto at the deadline, two guys that can close.  Meanwhile, his counterpart in NY is still thinking that Holmes can close.

There's a prime example of indications that change is necessary and he made it.  So I don't want to hear anything about him "refusing to change his process" when you're going to overlook something so obvious that refutes your argument.

And if Elias refuses to change in your view, what would I call that?  I'd call it discipline, dude.  Discipline.  I'd call it hardcore discipline from having worked in the major leagues since 2007, starting out as a scout for a respected, well run organization like the Cardinals and then going to the Astros where he worked his ass off, kept getting promoted and made it all the way up to assistant GM.  

Not arrogance.  Not stubbornness.  Discipline.  Big difference.  

[accinfo]

59 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.  Changing his process?  What do you want to change about a team that won the division last year and a team that's got a great chance to win it this year?  Did you not see him trade for Burnes this past offseason?  Did you not see him shore up the bullpen at the deadline?  Have you seen him whittle Kimbrel out of the equation while our key competition for the division is still trotting out a closer with 11 blown saves?

Do I need to remind you about the litany of injuries that's plagued this team this season?  If this team suffered half the amount of injuries it's had to deal with, we're in first place by a comfortable margin.  I mean, Mountcastle is out for way more than the 10 days that he was initially put on the IL and it's like no one even notices anymore.

What are you talking about, refusing to change?  Refusing to change what, exactly?  If you're going to keep hopping up and down about how lazy the Kimbrel signing was, just stop it.  He had a hole in his closer spot, he tried to fill it and it didn't work.  And let's not forget it did work for a good chunk of the first half of the season, there were a lot of people here who thought he deserved an all-star berth.  

So what'd he do?  Instead of "refusing to change" he went out and got Dominguez and Soto at the deadline, two guys that can close.  Meanwhile, his counterpart in NY is still thinking that Holmes can close.

There's a prime example of indications that change is necessary and he made it.  So I don't want to hear anything about him "refusing to change his process" when you're going to overlook something so obvious that refutes your argument.

And if Elias refuses to change in your view, what would I call that?  I'd call it discipline, dude.  Discipline.  I'd call it hardcore discipline from having worked in the major leagues since 2007, starting out as a scout for a respected, well run organization like the Cardinals and then going to the Astros where he worked his ass off, kept getting promoted and made it all the way up to assistant GM.  

Not arrogance.  Not stubbornness.  Discipline.  Big difference.  

That couldn’t have been said any better.  The best way to evaluate success or failure for a baseball team is their record.  Last year they had the best record in the AL.  This year with 20 games remaining they have the best record in the AL, despite more than their share of injuries.  The other thing about trades that we don’t know and will never know are the deals Mike Elias turned down and what effect they would have had on the current team or the team in the future.  Those may be the best decisions he has made.  

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.  Changing his process?  What do you want to change about a team that won the division last year and a team that's got a great chance to win it this year?  Did you not see him trade for Burnes this past offseason?  Did you not see him shore up the bullpen at the deadline?  Have you seen him whittle Kimbrel out of the equation while our key competition for the division is still trotting out a closer with 11 blown saves?

Do I need to remind you about the litany of injuries that's plagued this team this season?  If this team suffered half the amount of injuries it's had to deal with, we're in first place by a comfortable margin.  I mean, Mountcastle is out for way more than the 10 days that he was initially put on the IL and it's like no one even notices anymore.

What are you talking about, refusing to change?  Refusing to change what, exactly?  If you're going to keep hopping up and down about how lazy the Kimbrel signing was, just stop it.  He had a hole in his closer spot, he tried to fill it and it didn't work.  And let's not forget it did work for a good chunk of the first half of the season, there were a lot of people here who thought he deserved an all-star berth.  

So what'd he do?  Instead of "refusing to change" he went out and got Dominguez and Soto at the deadline, two guys that can close.  Meanwhile, his counterpart in NY is still thinking that Holmes can close.

There's a prime example of indications that change is necessary and he made it.  So I don't want to hear anything about him "refusing to change his process" when you're going to overlook something so obvious that refutes your argument.

And if Elias refuses to change in your view, what would I call that?  I'd call it discipline, dude.  Discipline.  I'd call it hardcore discipline from having worked in the major leagues since 2007, starting out as a scout for a respected, well run organization like the Cardinals and then going to the Astros where he worked his ass off, kept getting promoted and made it all the way up to assistant GM.  

Not arrogance.  Not stubbornness.  Discipline.  Big difference.  

I like you moose, but that’s a load of blather.  My point is entirely valid and I stand by it.

 

[accinfo]

2 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

I like you moose, but that’s a load of blather.  My point is entirely valid and I stand by it.

 

Great counter argument!

[Moose Milligan]

5 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

I like you moose, but that’s a load of blather.  My point is entirely valid and I stand by it.

 

I’ll take this post as you waving a white flag. No hard feelings. 

[Just Regular]

We'll be watching it unfold all decade, but I think the 2 great process questions are:

1. Talent Accumulation phase vs. Winning phase.    Did Elias try hard enough to honor the talents of his greatest players in 2023, or even 2022?    I've seen appropriate growth this year.

2. Adley vs. Eternity.    All Elias is I believe ever going to say publicly is homage to "sustainable pipeline".    It might also be true Adley is the straw that stirs the drink (not right now obviously), and no one is going to drive a winning window like he does.

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.  Changing his process?  What do you want to change about a team that won the division last year and a team that's got a great chance to win it this year?  Did you not see him trade for Burnes this past offseason?  Did you not see him shore up the bullpen at the deadline?  Have you seen him whittle Kimbrel out of the equation while our key competition for the division is still trotting out a closer with 11 blown saves?

Do I need to remind you about the litany of injuries that's plagued this team this season?  If this team suffered half the amount of injuries it's had to deal with, we're in first place by a comfortable margin.  I mean, Mountcastle is out for way more than the 10 days that he was initially put on the IL and it's like no one even notices anymore.

What are you talking about, refusing to change?  Refusing to change what, exactly?  If you're going to keep hopping up and down about how lazy the Kimbrel signing was, just stop it.  He had a hole in his closer spot, he tried to fill it and it didn't work.  And let's not forget it did work for a good chunk of the first half of the season, there were a lot of people here who thought he deserved an all-star berth.  

So what'd he do?  Instead of "refusing to change" he went out and got Dominguez and Soto at the deadline, two guys that can close.  Meanwhile, his counterpart in NY is still thinking that Holmes can close.

There's a prime example of indications that change is necessary and he made it.  So I don't want to hear anything about him "refusing to change his process" when you're going to overlook something so obvious that refutes your argument.

And if Elias refuses to change in your view, what would I call that?  I'd call it discipline, dude.  Discipline.  I'd call it hardcore discipline from having worked in the major leagues since 2007, starting out as a scout for a respected, well run organization like the Cardinals and then going to the Astros where he worked his ass off, kept getting promoted and made it all the way up to assistant GM.  

Not arrogance.  Not stubbornness.  Discipline.  Big difference.  

Dang I never seen a guy murdered on a message board before... Demoting Rogers after four starts is another recent data point.

[Moose Milligan]

8 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

Dang I never seen a guy murdered on a message board before... Demoting Rogers after four starts is another recent data point.

That’s a great point, too. He saw Rogers wasn’t ready and instead of being “stubborn” and keeping him out there, he sent him down to work on things. 
 

If anything he’s proven not to be stubborn. That’s his whole reason he and Sig have these jobs; to keep finding new ways to look at baseball and evaluate talent. They’re not “stubborn” at all. They’re at the vanguard of how the game is dissected and analyzed. 

Stubborn? FOH. 

Edited September 7 by Moose Milligan

[sportsfan8703]

I wish we had a GM that made as many mistakes as Elias did for like the 20 years we didn’t make the playoffs. 
 

 

[Cheetos]

11 hours ago, HowAboutThat said:

I like you moose, but that’s a load of blather.  My point is entirely valid and I stand by it.

 

Moose Lays Down winning Pocket Aces:  “How about that?”

HowAboutThat lays down 2 7 off-suit:  I won!

Edited September 7 by Cheetos

[foxfield]

We’re lucky to have Elias. And yet he isn’t perfect. But the idea that he is resistant to change is what is blather. And it’s ironic at the very least that the poster who states Elias refuses to change…even in the face of overwhelming counter arguments…refuses to change. 
 

But Elias needs some playoff success and a WS appearance and likely a WS win to solidify his standing.  Those things don’t have to all happen this year. 
 

This year will have an asterisk because of injuries regardless of the finish. But in my opinion this team needs a playoff series win to keep its momentum. 
 

I think that is reachable, realistic and in no way means the Orioles cannot go further. Just sort of the floor of what I would think is continued improvement. 
 

The grind is real. 

[HowAboutThat]

12 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I’ll take this post as you waving a white flag. No hard feelings. 

Actually, I appreciate that, but no the reason I didn’t respond was because you attacked me from many things I didn’t do or say

I don’t want to fire Mike, he’s been miraculous in what he’s done so far.

my only point in sharing this article about Cashman, and I was pretty clear, was that now that the organization is in a different phase of its development, the strategy needs to change.

We don’t draft high anymore, we’re not high on the waiver wire list anymore, and in a system that has a paucity of worthwhile pitching, we have just traded away two meaningful pitching prospects.

The worry is that Elias might not change the way he acquires assets, and I suggested that the attitude of stubbornness, arrogance, confidence, whatever one wishes to call it, might cause problems going forward, and I am hoping that he will adjust.

 

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, HowAboutThat said:

Actually, I appreciate that, but no the reason I didn’t respond was because you attacked me from many things I didn’t do or say

I don’t want to fire Mike, he’s been miraculous in what he’s done so far.

my only point in sharing this article about Cashman, and I was pretty clear, was that now that the organization is in a different phase of its development, the strategy needs to change.

We don’t draft high anymore, we’re not high on the waiver wire list anymore, and in a system that has a paucity of worthwhile pitching, we have just traded away two meaningful pitching prospects.

The worry is that Elias might not change the way he acquires assets, and I suggested that the attitude of stubbornness, arrogance, confidence, whatever one wishes to call it, might cause problems going forward, and I am hoping that he will adjust.

 

 

Well I never said that you said that you wanted to fire Elias.

You're correct, we don't draft high anymore, we're not high on the waiver wire list.  I think we'll be looking at the pitching talent in the system differently than a year from now, but that's just me.

But I still don't understand what you're talking about when you're talking about "the way he acquires assets" despite these changes.  Is he supposed to analyze talent differently in the draft?  Is he supposed to trade different?  

I still don't know what you mean here.  Yes, I'm aware that we don't draft as high as we used to, we're not in the same spot on the waiver wire...but to think that he doesn't understand this or doesn't have ideas on how to...well, keep essentially doing his job and doing it well seems a bit odd.

[Satyr3206]

13 hours ago, HowAboutThat said:

I like you moose, but that’s a load of blather.  My point is entirely valid and I stand by it.

 

I don't think the truth is blather. I agree with Moose.

[Flash- bd]

On 9/6/2024 at 8:37 PM, Sanfran327 said:

Some might call it arrogance, others might call it resolve. I think it's as simple as identifying a problem/situation, analyzing it to the best of your ability and that of the resources at your disposal, reaching a conclusion, and sticking to that decision based on the analysis that brought you to that decision. Beyond that, Elias will learn when and how to adjust as he gains experience in the #1 chair. 

Honestly, I don't even have any gripes with him at the moment. We all wanted Holliday up, then he stunk. Then we all wanted Mayo up, then he stunk. So who are we complaining about now? I can't even keep up.

Not to derail, but it's the same unfair criticism that Hyde is facing on this board. Manager and GM sure have become thankless responsibilities around here. And I know how you all talk about Harbaugh on the football board, too. I'm not apologist for any of them, but I do admire the fact that they've been able to build a championship-caliber club and maintain it through all of the injury adversity we've faced. This board is quick to point out mistakes, but is terrible at giving credit where credit is due, and having the most wins in the American League as we sit here on September 6 deserves a bunch of credit. 

Top, top post. Thank you for writing this! 

Thank god we've won a few games and this place is a bit back to normal. There were a few weeks there where this place was more reactionary than a political debate on twitter. 

re: the bolded, I agree, and honestly don't get it. I really don't see any Verdugo - Domínguez parallel here, and it seems a stretch to make one (for the purpose of serving an agenda or confirming a pre-existing bias?).