We should ignore NY and Boston (for now)

[mweb]

The same Yankees that brought in David Cone, Roger Clemens, David Wells Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neil, Chuck Knoblauch and Darryl Strawberry to name a few from the outside?,

The homegrown core was Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite and Rivera. That's pretty much it.

Oh, so the homegrown core was only 5 HOF caliber players plus some role players. Yeah, that's not much.

Also the same team that didn't really have the big power bat that you and others constantly clamour for.

And I and most others would be for moves like the ones you mention above to fill in holes and push the team over the top.

[mweb]

Look at the roster:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1996-roster.shtml

Out of how many impact players on that team, how many are homegrown? I count 3 - Pettitte, B. Williams and Jeter.

Every other impact player was acquired via trade or free agency.

Rivera too. What impact players did they have besides the homegrown guys that year? I'm guessing your definition of impact is about to decrease.

[RShack]

I think you might be looking back through revisionist goggles, Trea.

...

You're constantly failing to understand ...

Well, that's the crux of it right there.

He knows a bunch of baseball factoids, but he has no understanding. He's invented some model in his head, and he keeps trying to forces all those round pegs into his own weird model of fabricated square holes, and he doesn't listen to anybody who tries to reason with him about it...

[scOtt]

I couldnt disagree more... The more they improve their teams the wider the gap gets.

I'll explain all this, one more time for the slowest among us... The Yankees and the Red Sox are NOT improving. They are spending BILLIONS of Dollars to maintain the same HIGHEST level teams they can. They have been doing this for over a decade. And still... they both only end up getting 90-100 wins.

:slytf:

You, and the rest of you and Trea's clueless minions...

You need to shut up your NOISE and see reality! The Yankees and the Red Sox aren't going anywhere! In 5 years they will be the SAME 90-100 win team. What part of "we only need to reach a certain plateau" don't you clueless wonders understand?

[GoldGlove21]

Oh, so the homegrown core was only 5 HOF caliber players plus some role players. Yeah, that's not much.

Also the same team that didn't really have the big power bat that you and others constantly clamour for.

And I and most others would be for moves like the ones you mention above to fill in holes and push the team over the top.

Posada, Williams, and Petitte are not HOF calibur players. They are in the Hall of Very Good. The Yankees did well with those five, but it is important to note that those five players have twenty other players helping them. You look at their teams and there really was some very good ball players.

If you really look at the Orioles (40-Man) you notice that Jones, Tillman, Scott, Meredith, Albers, Sarfate, Hendrickson, Uehara, Gambino, Guthrie, Mickolio, Patton, Millwood, Tatum, Andino, Wigginton, Bell, Aubrey, Pie, Turner, Castillo, Itzturis, Montanez, and Hughes all came from other organizations. That means that 24/40 man roster were not home grown. I will say that our home grown players do form a pretty impressive list.

Bergesen

Berken

Erbe

Hernandez

Johnson

Matusz

Spoone

Perez

Wieters

Florimon

Roberts

Snyder

Markakis

Reimold

I think most organizations would be happy to pull a Markakis, Roberts, Jim Johnson, Brian Matusz, Matt Wieters, Brandon Snyder, Nolan Reimold, Brandon Erbe, and David Hernandez from their system. With so much young talent coming up through the pitching ranks we look to be able to field a competitive rotation, but the offensive production compared to other clubs is below average. Many organization seem to have a Brandon Snyder type on the way up. Bell is a solid prospect, but outside of Bell we are lacking punch in that department.

If everyone want to wait on pitching that is a fair stance I suppose because we do not know what we have, but in the hitting department we do know what we have. We have third base waiting for Bell it seems and we have Snyder who I do not even know if the Orioles are sure in what they have with him at this point. If we are going to make a move via trade, it has to be for a good fielding first baseman with at least 25-32 homerun power that can keep his batting average in the .280's. Too bad Reimold didn't get a chance at first this year, he might have hit enough to stay there with Pie playing in LF on a full time basis.

[GoldGlove21]

I'll explain all this, one more time for the slowest among us... The Yankees and the Red Sox are NOT improving. They are spending BILLIONS of Dollars to maintain the same HIGHEST level teams they can. They have been doing this for over a decade. And still... they both only end up getting 90-100 wins.

:slytf:

You, and the rest of you and Trea's clueless minions...

You need to shut up your NOISE and see reality! The Yankees and the Red Sox aren't going anywhere! In 5 years they will be the SAME 90-100 win team. What part of "we only need to reach a certain plateau" don't you clueless wonders understand?

I am usually with you, but the Yankees won the World Series for the first time in almost a decade this year and their additions of Teixeira, Brunett, and Sabathia really helped them get there. How can that not be improving? Boston is kind of in another boat all together as they had to deal with a declining Ortiz, lose of production from Bay in comparison to Manny, and an injured Dice-K. Boston adding Cameron helps them fill the LF void, but it comes at the cost of a couple wins if Bay or Holliday do not sign with the Sox. Lackey provides them with a great upgrade over whoever their number 4 or 5 pitcher was going to be (Wakefield?).

If they move Lowell and are able to sign Beltre then it will be very hard to say that the Yankees and Red Sox didn't improve the quality of their team. It might translate to the same number of wins, but it makes defeating them that much harder which in turn better their team. The Orioles are going to have a much harder time winning games against those two teams this year and I would put money on the best team in the AL being either the Red Sox or Yankees for the next 6 years with one of those two teams winning at least half of those WS titles.

Every Apple iPhone is just an iPhone, but the quality of the phone seems to change everytime a new version is put out. No matter what changes are made, it is still an iPhone.

[RShack]

I'll explain all this, one more time for the slowest among us... The Yankees and the Red Sox are NOT improving. They are spending BILLIONS of Dollars to maintain the same HIGHEST level teams they can. They have been doing this for over a decade. And still... they both only end up getting 90-100 wins.

Nope, that's where you're wrong... they're gonna sign a couple more guys and start winning 135-140 games.

Before long, they'll be winning so good that Bud will have to make the season longer, because 162 W's won't be enough to contain their greatness...

[Old#5fan]

I'll explain all this, one more time for the slowest among us... The Yankees and the Red Sox are NOT improving. They are spending BILLIONS of Dollars to maintain the same HIGHEST level teams they can. They have been doing this for over a decade. And still... they both only end up getting 90-100 wins.

:slytf:

You, and the rest of you and Trea's clueless minions...

You need to shut up your NOISE and see reality! The Yankees and the Red Sox aren't going anywhere! In 5 years they will be the SAME 90-100 win team. What part of "we only need to reach a certain plateau" don't you clueless wonders understand?

Uh, the Yankees finally winning the World Series wasn't improving? :scratchchinhmm:How do you get any frigging better than that? Your claim is not only wrong it is nonsensical. They are also getting better right now as we speak and will likely put a better or more talented team than the one that just won it all on the field next season!!

Meanwhile the Orioles are living in fantasy land if they think this group of youngsters has a snowball's chance of hell of ever competing with them without major acquisitions of proven top talent. It is unfortunate, and not fair but that is the stark reality of life in the AL East Division.

[ChaosLex]

Uh, the Yankees finally winning the World Series wasn't improving? :scratchchinhmm:How do you get any frigging better than that? Your claim is not only wrong it is nonsensical. They are also getting better right now and will likely put a better or more talented team than the one that just won it all on the field next season!! Meanwhile the Orioles are living in fantasy land if they think this group of youngsters has a snowball's chance of hell of ever competing with them without major acquisitions of proven top talent.

We can't outspend the Sux and MFY's though. The Sux wanted Lackey and they got him. We would've had to pay well over $100 million to bring Lackey here. Would you want that?

Also, supposedly the MFY's are in on Bay right now. There's literally no amount of money that we could throw at him to bring him here, IMO.

As for Holliday, supposedly the Cardinals are prepared to offer him one of their richest contracts ever over the course of 8 years.

We can't stand up to the perennial contenders. All we can hope is that the kids improve and players outside the organiation will start to view us in a more favorable light. It's not fair but that's just the way it is, my friend.

[Old#5fan]

We can't outspend the Sux and MFY's though. The Sux wanted Lackey and they got him. We would've had to pay well over $100 million to bring Lackey here. Would you want that?

Also, supposedly the MFY's are in on Bay right now. There's literally no amount of money that we could throw at him to bring him here, IMO.

As for Holliday, supposedly the Cardinals are prepared to offer him one of their richest contracts ever over the course of 8 years.

We can't stand up to the perennial contenders. All we can hope is that the kids improve and players outside the organiation will start to view us in a more favorable light. It's not fair but that's just the way it is, my friend.

You can hope all you want. That doesn't mean that Santa Claus really exist though now does it? The fact is that they need to make at least one dramatic move or signing a year from now until they regain competiveness. It would both help the team, and somewhat appease the fan base, and help sell tickets. It would also show the rest of the team that the Front Office is serious about regaining competiveness and give the young players more confidence.

[ChaosLex]

You can hope all you want. That doesn't mean that Santa Claus really exist though now does it? The fact is that they need to make at least one dramatic move or signing a year from now until they regain competiveness. It would both help the team, and somewhat appease the fan base, and help sell tickets. It would also show the rest of the team that the Front Office is serious about regaining competiveness and give the young players more confidence.

But the big stars aren't going to sign here, regardless of what we do. We can't outspend the MFY's or Sux. Also, who wants to play for a 98 loss team?

It's a hopeless situation. All we can do is hope that our young players pan out (much like the MFY's prospects did in the 90's) and pray that turns some heads in the baseball world. I don't like it any more than you do, but there's not much else we can do, IMO.

[Old#5fan]

But the big stars aren't going to sign here, regardless of what we do. We can't outspend the MFY's or Sux. Also, who wants to play for a 98 loss team?

It's a hopeless situation. All we can do is hope that our young players pan out (much like the MFY's prospects did in the 90's) and pray that turns some heads in the baseball world. I don't like it any more than you do, but there's not much else we can do, IMO.

You tellling me we couldn't sign Vlad and Pedro for example? I think we could if we open our wallets. They would instantly give us some credibility when facing the MFing Yankees and Red Sox while not really blocking any of our youngsters.

[ChaosLex]

You tellling me we couldn't sign Vlad and Pedro for example? I think we could if we open our wallets. They would instantly give us some credibility when facing the MFing Yankees and Red Sox while not really blocking any of our youngsters.

Oh, we can definitely sign Vlad and Pedro. I have my doubts that they'd be "good signs," but I don't doubt we could do it. When you talked about making a splash, I assumed you meant Lackey, Bay and/or Holliday.

My apologies, old-timer.

[Roll Tide]

i'll explain all this, one more time for the slowest among us... The yankees and the red sox are not improving. They are spending billions of dollars to maintain the same highest level teams they can. They have been doing this for over a decade. And still... They both only end up getting 90-100 wins.

:slytf:

You, and the rest of you and trea's clueless minions...

You need to shut up your noise and see reality! The yankees and the red sox aren't going anywhere! in 5 years they will be the same 90-100 win team. what part of "we only need to reach a certain plateau" don't you clueless wonders understand?

Sure & that means they will still beating us!!!!!

[Old#5fan]

Posada, Williams, and Petitte are not HOF calibur players. They are in the Hall of Very Good. The Yankees did well with those five, but it is important to note that those five players have twenty other players helping them. You look at their teams and there really was some very good ball players.

If you really look at the Orioles (40-Man) you notice that Jones, Tillman, Scott, Meredith, Albers, Sarfate, Hendrickson, Uehara, Gambino, Guthrie, Mickolio, Patton, Millwood, Tatum, Andino, Wigginton, Bell, Aubrey, Pie, Turner, Castillo, Itzturis, Montanez, and Hughes all came from other organizations. That means that 24/40 man roster were not home grown. I will say that our home grown players do form a pretty impressive list.

Bergesen

Berken

Erbe

Hernandez

Johnson

Matusz

Spoone

Perez

Wieters

Florimon

Roberts

Snyder

Markakis

Reimold

I think most organizations would be happy to pull a Markakis, Roberts, Jim Johnson, Brian Matusz, Matt Wieters, Brandon Snyder, Nolan Reimold, Brandon Erbe, and David Hernandez from their system. With so much young talent coming up through the pitching ranks we look to be able to field a competitive rotation, but the offensive production compared to other clubs is below average. Many organization seem to have a Brandon Snyder type on the way up. Bell is a solid prospect, but outside of Bell we are lacking punch in that department.

If everyone want to wait on pitching that is a fair stance I suppose because we do not know what we have, but in the hitting department we do know what we have. We have third base waiting for Bell it seems and we have Snyder who I do not even know if the Orioles are sure in what they have with him at this point. If we are going to make a move via trade, it has to be for a good fielding first baseman with at least 25-32 homerun power that can keep his batting average in the .280's. Too bad Reimold didn't get a chance at first this year, he might have hit enough to stay there with Pie playing in LF on a full time basis.

Wasn't Billy Rowell drafted to be the power hitting third base slugger that this team so desparately needs? It sure seems we don't draft very well at the positions we lack the most.