We should ignore NY and Boston (for now)

[GoldGlove21]

Bergesen was as good or better than Lackey last year. There is no reason Matusz cannot reach that level too in 2010. The whole point of the AM plan is to put comparable talent on the field at lower cost.

Right, but why comparable talent at a lower cost? What is the advantage to that ideology if you are not going to spend it to upgrade positions of need? Other than greasing the owners pockets there is not point.

[GoldGlove21]

If you want to insure that you will get your share of wins against the MFY's and the Sux this season, and thus avoid the dread culture of losing, you would have to sign Lackey, Holliday, Beltre/Figgins, Gonzales/Soriano etc., Wolf, and trade for one of AGonz, Blanks, Votto or Fielder. How realistic is all that? Just some of it wont be enough.

Lackey

Holliday

Beltre

Delgado

Capps

Gregg

That gives us a much better team. The cost would likely be in the $60M dollar range. In reality Beltre, Delgado, Capps, Gregg, and Bedard would work fairly nicely and cost about $40M (plus Bedards incetives). You could move Bell over to first hoping that he can field well enough to play there, but if you can man third then you can play first. The $9M salary of Millwood ties into the $38M or so number and we spend $47M this year or almost what came off of the book in 2009. Delgado becomes a free agent the following season (maybe the Orioles include a team option for 2011) and his salary comes off of the book. That gives the Orioles a nice chunk of money in addition to any added money they can spend to add parts.

You can make the 2010 product much improved while keeping an eye on the future.

[JTrea81]

The Yankees of the mid 90s had a pipeline of talent that created an incredible core and allowed them to deal for other pieces. David Cone for 3 Yankee farmhands. Clemens was traded for. Tino Martinez for Yankee farmhands. Chuck Knoblauch for Yankees farm hands. Paul O'Neil for the homegrown Roberto Kelly. Only David Wells was a FA signing and at the time I would hardly have considered him a "premium talent" signing.

Absolutely no reason whatsoever the Orioles couldn't have the same kind of success if the organization is patient and allows the pipeline to continue to grow.

The Yankees traded their talent, the Orioles aren't willing to, so how do they compare?

To be like the late 90's Yankees Andy has to make trades for players like Adrian Gonzalez. That's what the Yankees did.

They brought in Clemens and Wells. Where is our Clemens or our Wells? Our how about our Tino Martinez?

How about our O'Neil?

Better yet what happened to all those prospects the Yankees traded? Did they all pan out and become superstars?

Did David Wells and Roger Clemens blow out their arms, or did Tino Martinez suffer a career ending injury?

[geschinger]

The Yankees traded their talent, the Orioles aren't willing to, so how do they compare?

To be like the late 90's Yankees Andy has to make trades for players like Adrian Gonzalez. That's what the Yankees did.

They brought in Clemens and Wells. Where is our Clemens or our Wells? Our how about our Tino Martinez?

How about our O'Neil?

Better yet what happened to all those prospects the Yankees traded? Did they all pan out and become superstars?

Did David Wells and Roger Clemens blow out their arms, or did Tino Martinez suffer a career ending injury?

We don't know if they will or won't trade their talent if they have a pipeline as loaded as the Yankees did in the mid 90s. We have to get to the point where we have a surplus to be able to cash some of the depth in for positions of need. Patience is a virtue, you'd do well trying to develop some.

Clemens was brought in after they were already a winning team. A player brought in to be a final piece to a championship team. Again, something premature for the Orioles to do at this point. Even those who are against throwing money around in FA right now I believe would be fine with or want the club to go after Clemensesque talent if we are a championship caliber team looking to add the final piece to a World Series caliber roster. I'll tell you one thing, while I'm one of the posters who thinks FA should be used exceedingly sparingingly I'd be all for adding the biggest FA around that fits whatever need our team has coming off a 90 or 100 win season.

[Moose Milligan]

The Yankees traded their talent, the Orioles aren't willing to, so how do they compare?

To be like the late 90's Yankees Andy has to make trades for players like Adrian Gonzalez. That's what the Yankees did.

They brought in Clemens and Wells. Where is our Clemens or our Wells? Our how about our Tino Martinez?

How about our O'Neil?

Better yet what happened to all those prospects the Yankees traded? Did they all pan out and become superstars?

Did David Wells and Roger Clemens blow out their arms, or did Tino Martinez suffer a career ending injury?

My goodness.

First of all, the Yankees won 92 games in '96, good for first in the Al East. They won 79 games the year before. What major FA acquisition did they make to win 12 more games?

None.

Simply, the young talent matured.

I think you'll find by and large with the 1998 team that won 114 games, their team wasn't built around superstars, Trea. That team was a perfect blend of a young core and some solid veteran pickups. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1998.shtml

They didn't pick up Clemens until 1999. And I like how you say "Where's our Clemens?" like a once in a generation pitcher grows on a tree, ripe for our picking. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher since WW2 and you have the audacity to just sit there and act like we could find something similar?

Do you know how Paul O'Neil was acquired?

November 3, 1992: Traded by the Cincinnati Reds with Joe DeBerry (minors) to the New York Yankees for Roberto Kelly.

Do you know how much the Yankees paid for Tino Martinez? 2.3 million in his first year, 4.8 million in his last.

I think you might be looking back through revisionist goggles, Trea. Paul O'Neil was picked up for a player who had worn out his welcome in NY. Tino wasn't signed to a whopping contract, even for the time period.

You're constantly failing to understand that those late 90's Yankees teams had an amazing core of young talent and augmented that talent by signing guys who were solid. Not superstars, but solid.

And then they went out and got the best pitcher since WW2.

Those Yankees teams do not resemble this Yankees team that just won a title, except some familiar faces.

[JTrea81]

My goodness.

First of all, the Yankees won 92 games in '96, good for first in the Al East. They won 79 games the year before. What major FA acquisition did they make to win 12 more games?

None.

Simply, the young talent matured.

Uh, they picked Tino Martinez in a trade from Seattle, and added Mariano Duncan, Doc Gooden as a reclamation project and Kenny Rogers via FA.

It wasn't just their young talent maturing.

[El Gordo]

Uh, they picked up John Wettland in a dump from Montreal, Tino Martinez in a trade from Seattle, and added Mariano Duncan, Doc Gooden as a reclamation project and Kenny Rogers via FA.

It wasn't just their young talent maturing.

Which one of those was considered p:puke: at that time?:rolleyestf:

[JTrea81]

Which one of those was considered p:puke: at that time?:rolleyestf:

Tino Martinez was coming off a 30+/100+ .920 OPS season.

[Moose Milligan]

Uh, they picked up John Wettland in a dump from Montreal, Tino Martinez in a trade from Seattle, and added Mariano Duncan, Doc Gooden as a reclamation project and Kenny Rogers via FA.

It wasn't just their young talent maturing.

Wetteland shored up the pen and Tino was a good trade. Mariano Duncan had an extreme outlier career year for himself and Dwight Gooden posted an 5.01 ERA.

I'm not going to belittle the Wetteland and Tino acquisitions, but again, those guys were not superstars. Wetteland was a very good closer and Tino was a solid first baseman, not a Teixeira.

I will not sit here and say that Duncan and Gooden were great pickups for them. Do not act like Mariano Duncan was a great superstar 2nd baseman and that Gooden was some great pitcher.

Trea, by and large that team was made up of their core guys, augmented by good veteran pickups. Tino Martinez doesn't bring to the table what Mark Teixeira does.

[JTrea81]

Wetteland shored up the pen and Tino was a good trade. Mariano Duncan had an extreme outlier career year for himself and Dwight Gooden posted an 5.01 ERA.

I'm not going to belittle the Wetteland and Tino acquisitions, but again, those guys were not superstars. Wetteland was a very good closer and Tino was a solid first baseman, not a Teixeira.

I will not sit here and say that Duncan and Gooden were great pickups for them. Do not act like Mariano Duncan was a great superstar 2nd baseman and that Gooden was some great pitcher.

Trea, by and large that team was made up of their core guys, augmented by good veteran pickups. Tino Martinez doesn't bring to the table what Mark Teixeira does.

Look at the roster:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1996-roster.shtml

Out of how many impact players on that team, how many are homegrown? I count 3 - Pettitte, B. Williams and Jeter.

Every other impact player was acquired via trade or free agency.

[Moose Milligan]

Look at the roster:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1996-roster.shtml

Out of how many impact players on that team, how many are homegrown? I count 3 - Pettitte, B. Williams and Jeter.

So what's your point here, Trea? Are Pettite, Williams and Jeter some homegrown scrubs that weren't integral to that title? You also missed Rivera.

In essence, two hall of famers...probably a top 5 all time SS and the best closer ever. One of the better centerfielders in the past 15 years or so and a TOR starter who is notorious for big game postseason performances.

What are you sneezing at here? That's a good core and the Yankees picked up good supplemental players. Would you be happy if the Orioles were to come up with that right now?

Hell, look at the 2009 Yankees, I count 11.

Chamberlain

Pettite

Jeter

Posada

Cano

Cabrera

Pettitte

Rivera

Hughes

Aceves

Coke

Robertson

Leave off Pettite if you want because he left for a few years, thats 10.

The 1997 team featured Posada, expanding that core.

Trea, argue as much as you want but you cannot tell me that the Yankees teams picked up anyone between 1996-1998 as good as Tex or A-Rod. They picked up very good, solid veteran players. They were excellent at picking up guys who were past their prime and found the fountain of youth like David Cone and David Wells.

They didn't pick up anyone at all resembling Tex, A-Rod and CC Sabathia in those years.

[JTrea81]

So what's your point here, Trea? Are Pettite, Williams and Jeter some homegrown scrubs that weren't integral to that title? You also missed Rivera.

In essence, two hall of famers...probably a top 5 all time SS and the best closer ever. One of the better centerfielders in the past 15 years or so and a TOR starter who is notorious for big game postseason performances.

What are you sneezing at here? That's a good core and the Yankees picked up good supplemental players. Would you be happy if the Orioles were to come up with that right now?

Hell, look at the 2009 Yankees, I count 11.

Chamberlain

Pettite

Jeter

Posada

Cano

Cabrera

Pettitte

Rivera

Hughes

Aceves

Coke

Robertson

Leave off Pettite if you want because he left for a few years, thats 10.

The 1997 team featured Posada, expanding that core.

Trea, argue as much as you want but you cannot tell me that the Yankees teams picked up anyone between 1996-1998 as good as Tex or A-Rod. They picked up very good, solid veteran players. They were excellent at picking up guys who were past their prime and found the fountain of youth like David Cone and David Wells.

They didn't pick up anyone at all resembling Tex, A-Rod and CC Sabathia in those years.

So basically your admitting the late 90's Yankees had a lot of luck to get where they are including veterans finding the fountain of youth, that may have possibly been PED enhanced...

Meaning that everybody who wants the Orioles to be like the late 90's Yankees doesn't realize it's pretty slim chances that scenario will happen again.

Teams value their younger ML players more than they did then, so you'll never see impact players traded for that little. And even solid players are going for major $ on the FA market.

The Orioles can't be like the 90's Yankees just because it isn't the 1990's anymore. If the Yankees tried to build like that again now, they'd be looking outside at the playoffs.

[Moose Milligan]

So basically your admitting the late 90's Yankees had a lot of luck to get where they are including veterans finding the fountain of youth, that may have possibly been PED enhanced...

Meaning that everybody who wants the Orioles to be like the late 90's Yankees doesn't realize it's pretty slim chances that scenario will happen again.

Teams value their younger ML players more than they did then, so you'll never see impact players traded for that little. And even solid players are going for major $ on the FA market.

The Orioles can't be like the 90's Yankees just because it isn't the 1990's anymore. If the Yankees tried to build like that again now, they'd be looking outside at the playoffs.

I'm not admitting anything.

Again, I'm pointing out that the late 90's Yankees produced two all time greats, a gold glove centerfielder and a TOR starting pitcher.

I never said anything about luck or PED's either. How David Cone won 20 games for them one year is anyones guess...but the point is that he did it. They made smart moves and smart trades and did NOT do it by huge, FA acquisitions.

I'm not sure why you're so quick to write us off. I don't see why Matusz couldn't have a Pettite like career and I don't see why Jones couldn't be a perpetual AS/GG caliber centerfielder...maybe not as good as Williams, but no slouch. There's no reason why Markakis can't hit like O'Neil...in fact, thats an interesting comp.

And if ML teams value young prospects more than they did then, why are you so quick to trade some of ours?

I think you're forgetting what Tino Martinez was...once again you're looking through revisionist glasses. He had 1 big season before his trade to NY. He was a highly regarded young player and at the time he was a late bloomer. For awhile there, he was written off as a bust. IIRC, Jeff Nelson was a part of that trade too.

Hitchcock was a good prospect for the Yanks who had come off a promising season. The Mariners wanted a young pitcher and didn't know if Tino was for real after one great season.

Wetteland was traded for Fernando Seguignol, who at the time was a hot young prospect. The Expos wanted to dump salary and they wanted youth....a shame because that 1994 Expos team was incredible.

Those Yankees teams were built on good trades and an excellent core. IMO, there's no reason why we can't do the same.

The big thing that you're also overlooking is that Steinbrenner was suspended by baseball and reinstated in 1993 and took a hands off approach. In the 80's the Yankees were big spenders and didn't have much to show for it.

It wasn't until the 00's did they start spending large again and didn't have anything to show for it until this year...when they had a core of 11 homegrown guys on their roster.

You seem to think that we can't be like the late 90's Yankees because they produced two alltime greats and some other great players. I never said we had to produce two hall of famers...we just have to produce very good players and I think we are on our way.

Again, I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

[mweb]

I don't think they are going to crash and burn. But what if Wieters becomes more like a Ramon Hernandez, or Matusz becomes a Randy Wolf.

Not dominant, but solid ML regulars.

Churchill compared Tillman to Gil Meche when he was coming up through the Mariners system, and Meche is hardly a TOR for a competitive team.

So what happens if we have Wolf, Meche and Hernandez instead of Cuellar, Palmer and Piazza?

If the young core doesn't develop as much as many are projecting, then we are very unlikely to contend even if we had Holliday, Lackey, and AGon.

The way to lower the risk is to trade most of the young talent for established talent. However, the payroll will not support that. Even if the payroll can support it as I'm sure you'd argue, why not keep most of the young talent and add payroll through free agency when the team is closer to contention and has more well-defined needs?

So we're going to have to take the risk on much of our young talent. Sure, can trade a few guys if the right deal is there, but trading many of them for short-term fixes and/or guys that will cost us a ton of money doesn't make sense.

[mweb]

I couldnt disagree more... The more they improve their teams the wider the gap gets.

Except the really don't improve much if at all long-term, they pretty much stay at a similar level with occasional years where things come together really well (100 + win seasons) and occasional years where they don't (low 90's or lower).