How impartial is George Mitchell?

[NewMarketSean]

No CURRENT players from the Red Sox were on the report. Gagne was barely a Red Sox player and I'm thinking they wished he never was one even before this report. The Red Sox suffer a lot less embarrassment with the people that the report has named, anyone can see this.

Agreed. Gagne is nothing. When the report was released he was on another team. Ortiz and Youkilis are steroid users by the looks of them. Manny too.

[twoBshorty]

I actually think Gagne is something. I don't know how Mitchell got into Epstein's e-mail, but it's pretty clear that he was virtually sure Gagne and Brendan Donnelly were juicing and acquired them anyway. That scout predicting Gagne's drop-off was right on the money and he got ignored. Whoops.

As far as Mitchell himself goes, I give up. Nobody here is going to be convinced that he's not biased, and that's MLB's fault for tapping him to head the investigation. Whatever. The real question is what is the league going to do to fix it, especially with regards to the MLBPA? Gene Orza should be in for a world of hurt for warning players in advance about random testing.

But stuff like this:

Ortiz and Youkilis are steroid users by the looks of them. Manny too.

. . .is off the rails and borderline slander. Don't complain about someone else's bias and then throw unsubstantiated garbage out there like this.

[Todd-O]

Oh, come on, Sen. Mitchell... what happened to objective scrutiny?

I seriously wouldn't be shocked if someday I found out that players like:

Trot Nixon

Troy O'Leary

Nomar

Manny

and... Mike Timlin (the now ageless wonder)

to name a few, have used or abused performance enhancing drugs.

Seriously.

If you are going to call out specific players, then you need to start taking a much harder look in your own backyard. Manny Alexander and Mo Vaughn just aren't going to cut it.

[byrdz]

. . .is off the rails and borderline slander. Don't complain about someone else's bias and then throw unsubstantiated garbage out there like this.

Here are some steroid mysteries on Ortiz:

This is a quote from Ortiz when asked about his "protein shake" that is illegal in the U.S.; "But it can happen any time, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it." Supposedly these athletes know everything going into their bodies right? right. This also sounds a lot like the excuses we've heard from guys like Bonds and Sheffield.

Ortiz also has some magical heart problems due to "stress", fatigue, dehydration (from sitting on the bench during most of a game I guess). Heart problems in a current professional athlete that knows everything going into his body? Heart problems are a side affect of steroid use by the way.

Not to mention his being close friends with Tejada and defending Bonds by saying he thought he was clean when every other person on earth knew Bonds was abusing steroids.

While no definitive proof there's definite suspicion here and that's how this whole thing got started. Player denies steroid use, player slips and does something stupid then player gets investigated and proven to be a liar, except in this case of course.

[RShack]

Here are some steroid mysteries on Ortiz:

This is a quote from Ortiz when asked about his "protein shake" that is illegal in the U.S.; "But it can happen any time, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it." Supposedly these athletes know everything going into their bodies right? right.

Why would you say "right"? I think it's prolly not right. I think there's lotsa guys who would just take whatever somebody else said would make them play better. Ballplayers aren't chemists, they're ballplayers.

When Artie Donovan was on the old Letterman show, Dave asked him about whether there drugs in sports back when Artie played. Artie said, "Hell no. We didn't use any drugs, we never even heard about drugs. All we took was greenies. There was always a big bowl of them in the locker room." Dave and the studio audience cracked up, and Artie didn't know why. He didn't see what was funny about it. So, Artie thought greenies were not drugs. He didn't even know that he was routinely swallowing handfuls of speed.

[byrdz]

Why would you say "right"? I think it's prolly not right. I think there's lotsa guys who would just take whatever somebody else said would make them play better. Ballplayers aren't chemists, they're ballplayers.

So then how can they say with so much confidence that they haven't been taking steroids? If you don't know exactly what you're putting into your body, it's probably a good idea to stay away from it especially when your career (or life) could lie within that one decision. These guys have trainers for crips sake, they pay people to watch what they eat much less what type of drugs or "shakes" they are taking into their bodies. I don't buy the naive stories nowadays, there's too much focus on keeping your body healthy. To say that "I didn't know" is almost a sure sign of guilt IMO.

Let me just say one last thing about the Epstein's email that has me more puzzled than anything.

If he would have done this for Gagne why wouldn't he have done this for any of the other players that they acquired? That is to take them into the team knowing they use steroids. This shows us that he is willing to bring steroid users into the team but for some strange reason the only two are one reliever that has little impact to the team and the other is gone.

[RShack]

So then how can they say with so much confidence that they haven't been taking steroids? If you don't know exactly what you're putting into your body, it's probably a good idea to stay away from it especially when your career (or life) could lie within that one decision. These guys have trainers for crips sake, they pay people to watch what they eat much less what type of drugs or "shakes" they are taking into their bodies. I don't buy the naive stories nowadays, there's too much focus on keeping your body healthy. To say that "I didn't know" is almost a sure sign of guilt IMO.

I figure that it's a different story with different guys. I bet some guys pay a lot to have somebody keep up with all this stuff for them. I bet other guys just go with the flow. I bet other guys are somewhere in between.

[twoBshorty]

Here are some steroid mysteries on Ortiz:

This is a quote from Ortiz when asked about his "protein shake" that is illegal in the U.S.; "But it can happen any time, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it." Supposedly these athletes know everything going into their bodies right? right. This also sounds a lot like the excuses we've heard from guys like Bonds and Sheffield.

Ortiz also has some magical heart problems due to "stress", fatigue, dehydration (from sitting on the bench during most of a game I guess). Heart problems in a current professional athlete that knows everything going into his body? Heart problems are a side affect of steroid use by the way.

Not to mention his being close friends with Tejada and defending Bonds by saying he thought he was clean when every other person on earth knew Bonds was abusing steroids.

While no definitive proof there's definite suspicion here and that's how this whole thing got started. Player denies steroid use, player slips and does something stupid then player gets investigated and proven to be a liar, except in this case of course.

The "magical heart problems" are called atrial fibrillations. And you're right, they are linked to steroids. They're also linked to drinking too much coffee (heck, maybe he's popping greenies), stress, dehydration, and a load of other things. I've had them myself, as do 2.2 million other Americans who probably aren't on steroids. They are evidence of nothing.

Honestly, hearing that David Ortiz is a juicer wouldn't surprise me, for some of the non-AF-related reasons you enumerated above. But it's when people make comments like "He just LOOKS like it!" like NMS did above that I get angry. There is absolutely no evidence that Kevin Youkilis has anything to do with steroids. How does he "look" like a user? Many awful things have happened in human history because of people acting on what other people "look like," and statements like that are garbage, IMO. If you want to throw around accusations, base them on something other than your dislike of the way the guy looks, which is probably 90% influenced by the fact that he has BOSTON or NEW YORK on the front of his uniform. Judging by some of the names that came out in the report today, we have no idea how to know what a steroid user "looks like." I mean, Nook Logan? Nook Logan? I started cracking up when I saw his name.

[Baltimoron]

No CURRENT players from the Red Sox were on the report. Gagne was barely a Red Sox player and I'm thinking they wished he never was one even before this report. The Red Sox suffer a lot less embarrassment with the people that the report has named, anyone can see this. You also can't tell me that after all of the hording of top players that the Red Sox and Yankees have done over the past few years that the Yankees just happened to get all of the steroid deadbeats while the Red Sox come up clean as a whistle. Just doesn't add up.

There are 30 MLB teams. 80 some players are mentioned. Of course not every team will be mentioned a lot.

But there are Sox players mentioned, including a very recent one, and even more indicting is the inclusion of front office emails from his own organization, which as nothing more than two guys speculating don't really offer much solid evidence of Gagne's use, but as evidence of the subjective mindset of a front office (the Red Sox's), this evidence I think is intended to support Mitchell's attempt to cast a wide net and suggest that while players bear responsibility for their steroid use, so does everybody else, including the teams who, as this email demonstrates, are willing to turn blind eyes.

He is in some respects outing his own team's front office, and Theo specifically, for turning a blind eye to the issue. I think he intends it as an example of the sort of hearsay insider knowledge that permeated baseball front offices during this time but inspired none to act- willful ignorance.

He is also publicly embarrassing his team's GM (Theo) for ostensibly ignoring this report and giving up so much for Gagne when it appears the report was spot on. This also makes me really happy.

You seem to think this was an exhaustive report

It is not.

People don't get it- this "investigation" wasn't very successful, and in fact it is based on a few sources. The report cites Canseco's book juiced, OK . $20 mill (or maybe more) can't buy more than lots of billable hours. You need sources.

New York Yankees major league strength and conditioning coach Brian McNamee and Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski were responsible for a lot of the info.

So is it surprising that the Yankees are the most mentioned team and the Mets the 4th. And the 2nd and 3rd most mentioned teams, the Os and Angels, were largely based on previously known info.

BR is basically what Mitchell "found out", if you call it that, about the Os as far as I can tell. Not much else is new , is it?

[NewMarketSean]

I actually think Gagne is something. I don't know how Mitchell got into Epstein's e-mail, but it's pretty clear that he was virtually sure Gagne and Brendan Donnelly were juicing and acquired them anyway. That scout predicting Gagne's drop-off was right on the money and he got ignored. Whoops.

As far as Mitchell himself goes, I give up. Nobody here is going to be convinced that he's not biased, and that's MLB's fault for tapping him to head the investigation. Whatever. The real question is what is the league going to do to fix it, especially with regards to the MLBPA? Gene Orza should be in for a world of hurt for warning players in advance about random testing.

But stuff like this:

. . .is off the rails and borderline slander. Don't complain about someone else's bias and then throw unsubstantiated garbage out there like this.

Dude, chill out. We're on a message board talking. We're not in court and we're not in public. I'm just offering my opinion so get off your high horse.

Think about it... Mitchell's report spared the Red Sox. How can it be that several players from just about every other team in the MLB are mentioned in this report, but somehow, the entire Red Sox team comes out clean?

And yes, from the looks of them, I would think there is something up with Ortiz and Youkilis. We've said the same thing of Gibbons, and just about every other player who has gone through a physical transformation during their career.

[Baltimoron]

Dude, chill out. We're on a message board talking. We're not in court and we're not in public. I'm just offering my opinion so get off your high horse.

Think about it... Mitchell's report spared the Red Sox. How can it be that several players from just about every other team in the MLB are mentioned in this report, but somehow, the entire Red Sox team comes out clean?

And yes, from the looks of them, I would think there is something up with Ortiz and Youkilis. We've said the same thing of Gibbons, and just about every other player who has gone through a physical transformation during their career.

His frustration is with your nonsensical retorts to his reasoned, well thought out perspective on this issue. I'm sure he is aware this is a message board. Are you aware that you blindly trudge forward even though we have established that your assumption is flawed?

We get that you are irrationally paranoid and don't read too good.

[Odenton O]

New York Yankees major league strength and conditioning coach Brian McNamee and Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski were responsible for a lot of the info.

So is it surprising that the Yankees are the most mentioned team and the Mets the 4th. And the 2nd and 3rd most mentioned teams, the Os and Angels, were largely based on previously known info.

I think this is the key fact here--this report is only based on a few sources. Those sources provided info on players they came in contact with. Some of those players provided info on other players. Guys like Segui and Grimsley, who moved around a lot, give you some cross-pollination between teams, but it really doesn't surprise me that not all teams were touched on equally. It wasn't reasonable to think that this was going to be an exhaustive list. Its a state-of-the-game report, not a criminal dragnet.

Frankly, I think the emails about Gagne are probably more embarrassing to the Red Sox FO than whether Varitek is sticking a needle in his ass.

[sara]

Agreed. Gagne is nothing. When the report was released he was on another team. Ortiz and Youkilis are steroid users by the looks of them. Manny too.

Ortiz has been a tall and big man his entire life. What proof do you have to say Manny and Kevin are taking steroids? Kevin does well in the beginning of the season and then tails off in the second half. When someone is taking steroids, they usually do well ALL year.

Read Ortiz's book - he and Manny like very loose fitting uniforms. Their uniforms are always 2 sizes too big which makes them look much bigger than they are. If you see them in street clothes, they are much smaller. As for their talent, they have been talented forever and have never failed a drug test. You really shouldn't make false statements unless you have something to back them up.

[adny]

I can't confirm it, but I've been hearing rumors around (on Scott Farrell's Sirius show specifically) that there were two versions of the report, one for public release and one that was privately circulated around MLB. The private version supposedly has 40+ players that were redacted from the public version of the report, and that half of them were current or former Red Sox.

I haven't seen anything on here yet (I'm actually searching around the web for it right now) but I'll post some links if I find them.

Nomar was among the names I heard that were redacted.

[MChance]

Yo yo ma!

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