Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[crawjo]

Palmeiro should just keep his mouth shut and stop this BS about him getting a tainted B-12 shot. I don't believe him. Just like Clemens it just shows you are not only a cheat but a liar. He is shocked he only got voted on 11% of the ballots? I have zero respect for him and hope he NEVER gets in the Hall of Fame. I don't care about how everyone was doing it. If these guys just said I did it and shouldn't have and not offer any more details, like a Brian Roberts, then they gain a little respect back.

Go to hell. I'm so sick of people using steroids for empty moralizing and grandstanding.

Seriously, go to hell.

[Moose Milligan]

There's nothing he can do or say that'll help his cause.

[accinfo]

Go to hell. I'm so sick of people using steroids for empty moralizing and grandstanding.

Seriously, go to hell.

Real nice. Go to hell must have put you in the Princeton debating team.

[The Wedge]

As I've said, if you aren't going to let Palmeiro in, you'd better kick Gaylord Perry, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt and others out for "cheating" as well.

Major League Baseball has never been and never will be a clean game.

Players will do almost anything to get an edge. There's too much money at stake not to.

You are kidding yourself if you think today's baseball players are 100% clean.

You can add Whitey Ford and his infamous ball scuffing practice.

[crawjo]

Real nice. Go to hell must have put you in the Princeton debating team.

I've had lots of very drawn out, evidence-based debates with people about steroids and baseball for years and years, but it fails every time against the tidal wave of moralistic posturing that people seem to prefer. I've grown tired of it and I have absolutely no sympathy or patience for people who feel the way you do about steroid usage in baseball.

I have no idea why you'd choose to dump all over Palmeiro for expressing normal human emotions--like disappointment--on what has to have been a difficult day for him. But none of that matters because you see things in very black and white terms. It's ahistorical and endlessly stupid.

[El Gordo]

It seems to me there are two issues with steroids. The "character" issue and the numbers issue. As to the character issue I say BS. There are plenty of reprehensible caharcters in the HOF; cheaters, wife beaters, racists, alcoholics, coke snorters, smack shooters, greenie abusers, murderers, rapists. and thieves, you name it. The only organizations with more reprehensible characters, IMO, are Congress, and the BBWAA. Really how many pious, judgemental, moralizing, sportwriters could stand to have their closets inspected. The numbers issue is a different matter. To what degree does the use of PED's distort the records. IMO, in Palmeiro's case, not at all because I don't believe he used them prior to his being tested positive. To me it doesn't matter whether he used them intentionally or not (though I believe it was inadvertant) they had no significant effect on his numbers. I don't think this is the case for Bonds or McGwire, e.g. The primary way steroids effect performance IMO, is by increasing muscle mass, and by increasing the rate of recovery from workouts, allowing a player to maintain a peak level of performance over the course of a season and prolonging a career. I don't think they make the ball go farther, or faster for that matter, except for the effects of increased body mass. I'd say if Bonds didn't use steroids he probably would have about 100 or so less HR's. Not enough to top Aaron, but still enough for the HOF. And I cant stand the guy. Same for ARoid. He probably would still have the numbers to rate the Hall. McGwire, probably not.

[JTrea81]

It seems to me there are two issues with steroids. The "character" issue and the numbers issue. As to the character issue I say BS. There are plenty of reprehensible caharcters in the HOF; cheaters, wife beaters, racists, alcoholics, coke snorters, smack shooters, greenie abusers, murderers, rapists. and thieves, you name it. The only organizations with more reprehensible characters, IMO, are Congress, and the BBWAA. Really how many pious, judgemental, moralizing, sportwriters could stand to have their closets inspected. The numbers issue is a different matter. To what degree does the use of PED's distort the records. IMO, in Palmeiro's case, not at all because I don't believe he used them prior to his being tested positive. To me it doesn't matter whether he used them intentionally or not (though I believe it was inadvertant) they had no significant effect on his numbers. I don't think this is the case for Bonds or McGwire, e.g. The primary way steroids effect performance IMO, is by increasing muscle mass, and by increasing the rate of recovery from workouts, allowing a player to maintain a peak level of performance over the course of a season and prolonging a career. I don't think they make the ball go farther, or faster for that matter, except for the effects of increased body mass. I'd say if Bonds didn't use steroids he probably would have about 100 or so less HR's. Not enough to top Aaron, but still enough for the HOF. And I cant stand the guy. Same for ARoid. He probably would still have the nuimbers to rate the Hall. McGwire, probably not.

How would Hank Aaron had performed had he not used greenies? Didn't he cheat as well?

Why are greenies ok and steroids aren't?

[boog26]

It seems to me there are two issues with steroids. The "character" issue and the numbers issue. As to the character issue I say BS. There are plenty of reprehensible caharcters in the HOF; cheaters, wife beaters, racists, alcoholics, coke snorters, smack shooters, greenie abusers, murderers, rapists. and thieves, you name it. The only organizations with more reprehensible characters, IMO, are Congress, and the BBWAA. Really how many pious, judgemental, moralizing, sportwriters could stand to have their closets inspected. The numbers issue is a different matter. To what degree does the use of PED's distort the records. IMO, in Palmeiro's case, not at all because I don't believe he used them prior to his being tested positive. To me it doesn't matter whether he used them intentionally or not (though I believe it was inadvertant) they had no significant effect on his numbers. I don't think this is the case for Bonds or McGwire, e.g. The primary way steroids effect performance IMO, is by increasing muscle mass, and by increasing the rate of recovery from workouts, allowing a player to maintain a peak level of performance over the course of a season and prolonging a career. I don't think they make the ball go farther, or faster for that matter, except for the effects of increased body mass. I'd say if Bonds didn't use steroids he probably would have about 100 or so less HR's. Not enough to top Aaron, but still enough for the HOF. And I cant stand the guy. Same for ARoid. He probably would still have the nuimbers to rate the Hall. McGwire, probably not.

Umm...If he never used steroids prior to being tested positive, his test would have come up negative.

[El Gordo]

How would Hank Aaron had performed had he not used greenies? Didn't he cheat as well?

Why are greenies ok and steroids aren't?

Why are you asking me? I think you have to accept both as a part of the game during a particular era, just like the dead ball, juced balls, the raised and lowered mounds, the smaller and larger parks, expansion, smaller and larger strike zones, negro leagues, etc.

[El Gordo]

Umm...If he never used steroids prior to being tested positive, his test would have come up negative.

Do you really not understand what I mean here?:rolleyestf:

[JTrea81]

Why are you asking me? I think you have to accept both as a part of the game during a particular era, just like the dead ball, juced balls, the raised and lowered mounds, the smaller and larger parks, expansion, smaller and larger strike zones, negro leagues, etc.

Right, it was more rhetorical not directed at you.

I think it's going to take awhile, but eventually this crop of pompous self-righteous writers will eventually be replaced by more tolerant sportswriters and then the players that deserve to get in, will.

But right now, they are so focused on keeping the HOF "clean," while completely ignoring all the dirty laundry that is currently hanging on its walls.

[El Gordo]

Right, it was more rhetorical not directed at you.

I think it's going to take awhile, but eventually this crop of pompous self-righteous writers will eventually be replaced by more tolerant sportswriters and then the players that deserve to get in, will.

But right now, they are so focused on keeping the HOF "clean," while completely ignoring all the dirty laundry that is currently hanging on its walls.

As far as the HOF voting goes, there was a time when sportswriters were the ones who saw the players the most and were in the best position to judge them in terms of performance. That time has passed. I think we have to form a new voting body, otherwise the HOF will become increasingly a platform for sportwriter/celebrity self promotion. Like the nitwit this year that voted for Tino Martinez and BJ Sutrhoff but not Alomar, Blyleven, or Larkin.:rolleyestf:

[Nite]

Lets go back to the story that he was telling the truth. So what if it is the truth. Raffy ran out of B12 and asked a team mate for some. However this team mate had special B12 (which we now know Miggy was using so...)

If he's telling the truth is he still outed? Yea he tested positive... but his stats are clean. The only "juiced" year was half of a year and his final year. Does he still get black listed because of this? Again we are assuming he told the truth and that is what happened.

Do you punish someone for 1 stupid mistake that has 0 effect on the topic in hand (his career stats)?

[bawlmorchop]

Here's why I think Raffy is telling the truth, if he knew he was using he wouldn't have gotten caught!

The system was set up so that players could use. Writers need to stop being so high and mighty and let in the great players of the era. I can see if you were a writer who in 98 was railing against steroid use to not vote for these players but the majority were celebrating there careers. It's all a load of bollocks.

[Dipper9]

As I've said, if you aren't going to let Palmeiro in, you'd better kick Gaylord Perry, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt and others out for "cheating" as well.

Major League Baseball has never been and never will be a clean game.

Players will do almost anything to get an edge. There's too much money at stake not to.

You are kidding yourself if you think today's baseball players are 100% clean.

If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Or as Jesse the Body Ventura famously said..."Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!"

As for Raffy, I believe his story. I believe that he thought he was simply taking B-12. I also believe that he's a complete moron. How could someone with such a great career do something like this in his final year and basically ruin his entire career? He is one of only 4 men with 3000 hits and 500 homers. The other three are in the Hall, while Raffy will always be known as a cheater.

I believe your story Raffy, and I believe you were screwed over, but its your own damn fault for letting someone inject you without making 100% sure it was not a steroid.