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  1. #46
    NewMarketSean's Avatar
    NewMarketSean is offline Plus member Since 05/04 Hall of Fame Reputation Reputation
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    What were the Rays like in 2004? Four years before they were in the WS? For people saying AM needs more time, I think the Rays examples proves them wrong. Four years is enough time to turn an organization around, and at least show some signs of progress. We havent. None whatsoever.

  2. #47
    GoldGlove21 is offline Plus Member since 7/09 All-Star Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyK27 View Post
    I wanted to point out this caption that I read on MLBTRADERUMORS.Com.



    This is just another example of another Orioles Highly touted minor league prospect who's stuff regressed.

    Add him to Tillman, Matusz, and I'm sure there are others. What is going on?
    IMO something or someone needs to change/go fast. It's hard to believe the Orioles front office isn't smart enough to address and fix this problem.
    A lot of us said he would have been a better reliever a long time ago. I would have moved Spoone to the pen and not spent as much money on the likes of Gregg or Gonzalez. Sooner or later the Orioles are going to figure out how to do things. Moving one of your best relievers in Johnson out of the pen and trying him as a starter is another one of those decisions that strike me as a bad idea. Trade the guy for a young prospect, but do not make Johnson more expensive. He is going to be arbitration eligible moving forward and he will have both a successful relief pitching background and may have added value from his ability to be an effective starter. If it works out at he is a viable #4 or #5 starter that will help the team in one area while requiring them to pretty much find a whole new bullpen if they deal Koji.

  3. #48
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    crowmst3k! is offline Plus Member Since 08/09 All-Star Reputation
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    It's baffling to me that this has not improved. Seriously...these types of organizational employees are cheap. Implementing good training, conditioning, and development programs are cheap. My guess would be somewhere around 3-4 million in payroll TOPS for the entire system to be revamped with the correct personnel. That's Garrett Atkins money. That's the same amount of sunk cost that we see year after year trying to buy mediocre vets.

    It clearly comes down to favoritism, cronyism, and an unwillingness to make tough staff decisions and let go of the people that really don't contribute. I think there are some very good development people in this organization...but their efforts need to be consistently supported top to bottom by upper management, and the dead weight needs to be replaced by like-minded, philosophically consistent instructors.

  4. #49
    grimed1 is offline Plus Member Since March 2010 All-Star Reputation
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    “If I had to do it all over again, I would have never done it,” said Leo Mazzone, mostly a national television analyst on baseball these days, reflecting from his home in Roswell. He inherited a bunch of soft pitchers in Baltimore who couldn’t adjust to his hard but effective style. He was booted after two seasons.

    To hear Mazzone tell it, his firing was a relief. “Once I got there and saw how they operated compared to the Braves, I knew I made a mistake the first week of spring training,” he said, before chuckling and adding, “I said to myself, ‘You know what? I done messed up.’

    “The lack of organization. The lack of discipline. The lack of overall professionalism. I was shocked, and I couldn’t believe it.”
    Gotcha... I spent much of my adult life in Rochester and watched a great thing (the affiliation with Baltimore) destroyed by an idiot owner at the major league level. Where once a player came up playing a specific style of baseball, it became questionable as to whether or not the players had any organizational direction at all in just a short time.

    The first season with Minnesota as the parent club gave us Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and a host of others who showed a remarkable ability to play the game... something that hadn't been seen with Oriole farmhands for a long time. I'd have to go back and look at the roster for Rochester that year, but it was loaded. I don't think that any player from the previous year, Baltimore's last as parent club, could have made the Red Wings.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The O's under Angelos became notorious for a dysfunctional development system. One infamous incident came when Erik Bedard, their top prospect at the time, was playing at Bowie. In one game, Bedard reached his mandatory pitch count, but manager Dave Cash sent him back out to start the next inning. On the second or third pitch, Bedard blew out his elbow. Cash and the pitching coach were fired a day or two later.

    I see a lot of games at Frederick and Bowie, and until the last couple years the Pirates' farm teams consistently embarrassed the Orioles'. The O's have made some progress recently, though. The Pirates never had the kind of dismal reputation the O's have had over the Angelos years, although I suspect things may have started falling apart the last couple years under DL. NH's decision to fire Brian Graham clearly surprised a lot of people, so I'm guessing NH found some things he didn't like.

    The same O's that lost their AAA farm team because of bad baseball. Teams that refused to play at the O's minor leaugue Spring Training complex. The team that took twenty years to finally get a ST home.

    Stan Charles said that when MacPhail was hired that Angelos told him he had to keep certain people in their jobs. I think Stockstill and a few others are still around.



    http://onlybucs.net/forums/index.php...e;topic=3175.0

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewMarketSean View Post
    What were the Rays like in 2004? Four years before they were in the WS? For people saying AM needs more time, I think the Rays examples proves them wrong. Four years is enough time to turn an organization around, and at least show some signs of progress. We havent. None whatsoever.
    The difference between the O's and Tampa is that Tampa got new ownership that revamped the entire organization. From baseball operations to marketing, everything was done differently. Sternberg replaced Namoli as owner and brought in a couple of former Wall Street guys, including Andrew Friedman, to run things. If you're interested in how the Rays turned things around, you should check out The Extra 2 Percent by Jonah Keri. Unfortunately for the Rays, they're facing an uphill battle because they can't get a new stadium.

    I don't think the O's have any chance of being competitive, or even .500, until Angelos sells and an a new owner cleans house entirely. Angelos may be a good plaintiffs' lawyer, but his skill set in business is nonexistent. We need a owner that has experience transforming organizations and eliminating inefficiencies like Sternberg or John Henry or the new hedge fund guy that bought into the Mets. I genuinely believe that those types of owners, with more progressive front offices that take risks are the only way to compete in the AL East long term. [Yes, I recognize that his law firm is a somewhat of a "business," but it's not similar to the background that we need in an owner.]

    Until PA sells, this organization is going nowhere. It's sad.

  6. #51
    RustyMcNail's Avatar
    RustyMcNail is offline Plus Member Since 12/07 Major Leagues Reputation Reputation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose Milligan View Post
    The Orioles could screw up pizza.
    And overcharge for it.

  7. #52
    DrungoHazewood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewMarketSean View Post
    What were the Rays like in 2004? Four years before they were in the WS? For people saying AM needs more time, I think the Rays examples proves them wrong. Four years is enough time to turn an organization around, and at least show some signs of progress. We havent. None whatsoever.
    Number of years it took expansion teams to get to .500:

    Astros: 8
    Angels: 2
    Royals: 3
    Padres: 10
    Expos: 11
    Blue Jays: 7
    Mariners: 15
    Senators II: 9
    Mets: 8
    Brewers: 10
    Rockies: 4
    Marlins: 5
    Rays: 11
    D'Backs: 2

    The Mariners are the only expansion team that started off with nothing who had a losing run as bad as the 1998-2011 Orioles.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrungoHazewood View Post
    Number of years it took expansion teams to get to .500:

    Astros: 8
    Angels: 2
    Royals: 3
    Padres: 10
    Expos: 11
    Blue Jays: 7
    Mariners: 15
    Senators II: 9
    Mets: 8
    Brewers: 10
    Rockies: 4
    Marlins: 5
    Rays: 11
    D'Backs: 2

    The Mariners are the only expansion team that started off with nothing who had a losing run as bad as the 1998-2011 Orioles.
    Yikes, I may have to use this in a blog...

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony-OH View Post
    Yikes, I may have to use this in a blog...
    Some more ammo for that blog:

    The Marlins won the WS in that 5th year of existence, 1st ever over .500. They then went on to have their two worst seasons in franchise history immediately after in 98 and 99, and then in 4 more short years won the WS again. So not only did they do it once in 5 years, but they turned around and did it again in 4.

    The Diamondbacks won the WS in their 4th season in existence in 2001.

    The Rockies made the playoffs in their 3rd season in existence, but didn't make it to the WS until 2007, their 15th.

  10. #55
    CrimsonTribe's Avatar
    CrimsonTribe is offline Plus Member Since 08/06 All-Star Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation
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    It amazes me that the Orioles have these assets worth millions of dollars and they do nothing to develop their value or protect them. It's like me buying a Picasso and hanging it on my front porch.

  11. #56
    DrungoHazewood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonTribe View Post
    It amazes me that the Orioles have these assets worth millions of dollars and they do nothing to develop their value or protect them. It's like me buying a Picasso and hanging it on my front porch.
    It's almost as if the owner grew up in the 30s and 40s when players were paid $7000 a year and if their arm fell off from throwing six complete games in two weeks, oh well, they were only getting $7000 a year so you're not losing much.

  12. #57
    JayThomas is offline Plus Member since 04/11 Major League Starter Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonTribe View Post
    It amazes me that the Orioles have these assets worth millions of dollars and they do nothing to develop their value or protect them. It's like me buying a Picasso and hanging it on my front porch.
    Steve Melewski quoted John Stockskill today regarding Tyler Townsend:

    "We are hoping another week to ten days. He's been troubled with a hamstring (issue) now for about two years. That is something we have to look at with him and some other guys with their off-season conditioning. Is there something we can do to get them freer and looser to make sure they are healthy next year. He was doing better this week," he said.

    This fits right into the topic of development and how conditioning plays a crucial role. How could our Director of Player Development say that his conditioning 'is something that we have to look at'? How could can it be that after all of these years we don't have a system in place for developing our assets?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewMarketSean View Post
    What were the Rays like in 2004? Four years before they were in the WS? For people saying AM needs more time, I think the Rays examples proves them wrong. Four years is enough time to turn an organization around, and at least show some signs of progress. We havent. None whatsoever.
    Dombrowski needed five
    Ryan needed eight

    I mean if you are just going to arbitrarily pick a year prior to the Rays going to the world series? I could say they needed a decade, because its true.

  14. #59
    Stotle's Avatar
    Stotle is offline Hangout Scouting Contributor Hall of Fame Reputation Reputation Reputation
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentJames View Post
    Dombrowski needed five
    Ryan needed eight

    I mean if you are just going to arbitrarily pick a year prior to the Rays going to the world series? I could say they needed a decade, because its true.
    Actually, it isn't an arbitrary number. I believe he's using the date that this group entered the Rays front office.

  15. #60
    NewMarketSean's Avatar
    NewMarketSean is offline Plus member Since 05/04 Hall of Fame Reputation Reputation
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentJames View Post
    Dombrowski needed five
    Ryan needed eight

    I mean if you are just going to arbitrarily pick a year prior to the Rays going to the world series? I could say they needed a decade, because its true.
    So did the Orioles need 14 years to get back to .500?

    Using your logic, that's the case.

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