I think this winter (maybe sooner), it will be time to pick a direction

[ccbird]

Absolutely he would be.

MacPhail convinced Angelos that they didn't need Tex.

ROFL. JTrea is funny. I don't know what I was missing skimming over his posts the last 3 years. Tech, how can you want this guy gone??? Pure comedy.

[Frobby]

Doesn't mean much. We're 8-14 against teams in our division. Boston and NYY will continue to own us. We still have a lot of games to play against those two teams. Until we start balancing that ratio out, the O's will continue to clean out their lockers for October.

The schedule ahead is daunting. However, for the record, Boston didn't own us last year, and they haven't owned us so far this year.

[TakebackOPACY]

Well, one thing being overlooked in the discussion, which is extremely important, is that the pitching hasn't panned out as well as hoped. If this team was in the top 4-5 in pitching, like it was in August and September last year, you could build a contending team around the position players we have with a few smart moves. But our pitching just hasn't come along as well as we hoped. And before you say, "yes, but our staff is young and just needs more time to develop," look around the league. There are plenty of young pitchers having a lot of major league success.

Now, I may feel differently about this a month from now, if Matusz stays healthy and is effective, Arrieta gets more consistent and either Bergesen or Tillman earns their way back into the fifth spot and starts doing a decent job. But right now, we are 12th in the league in ERA (9th in starter ERA), and we just cannot think about contention now or in the future unless the pitching is well above average. We don't have any other young starters to trot out to the mound until the Bundy's and perhaps Klein are ready, so that's 2-3 years from now. So, either this group needs to do a lot more, or we need to rebuild or spend.

'Hoped' is the correct word. Without looking up any of the projections, I'd speculate that the young starting pitching has performed well within the expected range and probably slightly above the projected median for 2011. Factor in the league wide decrease in offense and maybe they're slightly below their adjusted-to-the-league median expectations. Factor in the short term impact of a not-so-serious-for-the-long-term injury to Matusz and they're probably above.

The current owner isn't the one who is clueless on how to negotiate with premium talent.

Really, really go back and read about and study the failed Mussina negotiation.

Let it be recorded. The OriolesHangout gave up on the 2011 season on June 10th with the O's 4 games out of the Wild Card.

1. There is no consideration that BRob may return to the team like he did last year. Only this year he may return to a .500 team and try to boost it to the playoffs.

2. The Hangout gives up before they see the impact of Matusz returning to join Guthrie, Britton and Arrieta.

3. The Hangout gives up even though the bullpen is pitching well including Gregg, Koji, Johnson and Accardo.

4. The Hangout gives up with Jones establishing himself in the 3 hole in the lineup.

5. The Hangout just plain gives up of Markakis doing anything this year.

6. The Hangout gives up as Reynolds and Hardy are surging.

7. The Hangout gives up as Wieters shows he is the best catcher in he AL East.

8. The Hangout doesn't value Reimold contribution in left even though his numbers since his return are good.

9. The Hangout gives up before Lee and Reynolds face the NL pitchers they are familar with.

I am sorry I can't join the mutiny. Not at 4 games out. Not until we see more. You all may be prophets and be proven right but I just don't think it time to give up on the talent on this team. I will wait to make a judgement.

Go O's.

"Mutiny"??

4 games out!!!!!!! FOUR

If at the beginning of the year we were told that the O's were only 4 games out on June 10th, we would have been dancing in the streets. Not giving up on the team we have been loyal to all these years.

I don't know what is going to happen and neither does anyone either. So why not wait and see how it turns out before writing the conclusion.

Give it a rest. Having a rational discussion about how to build a team that is built to compete for a championship is not the same as "giving up on the team we have been loyal to all these years." That's offensive. I want them to build an organization from which we can expect championship runs, not a team that hopes for a miracle.

[sbauer]

The schedule ahead is daunting. However, for the record, Boston didn't own us last year, and they haven't owned us so far this year.

Boston was a completely different team last year. I mean, Boston had Bill Hall and Darnell McDonald playing every day for extended periods. We'll see what happens for the rest of this year, but Boston has been playing much better as of late.

[osfan83]

It was unlikely for the O's to good 34-23 to end last season, but they did it. After almost everyone got healthy. What if Roberts comes back and is the igniter that gets the team scoring 5 runs a game? We have to wait to see what happens. What if Markakis starts to hit and doesn't stop? What if Reimold is back to his 2009 form?

As a pure fan, I'm right on board with you...but when playing arm chair GM you can't build your stratagy on nothing but positive what if's.

As to the debate in this thread....I can't see Andy throwing in the towl on this current rebuild, and I can't see Buck taking the job and less than a year in, giving up on the current crop. My guess is more of the same. Replacing DLee, and Vlad with grade B or C free agents, resigning Hardy, and giving 2012 a shot with the same "core".

[wildcard]

Give it a rest. Having a rational discussion about how to build a team that is built to compete for a championship is not the same as "giving up on the team we have been loyal to all these years." That's offensive. I want them to build an organization from which we can expect championship runs, not a team that hopes for a miracle.

This team does not need a miracle. It just has to play to its potential.

I have no problem with discussions about building a champion team. What gets me is people saying the team can't contend this year when they are 4 game out. That is a losers attitude. I bet Buck wouldn't listen to it.

[Dwight Schrute]

This team does not need a miracle. It just has to play to its potential.

I have no problem with discussions about building a champion team. What gets me is people saying the team can't contend this year when they are 4 game out. That is a losers attitude. I bet Buck wouldn't listen to it.

This team's potential is a .500 record. And it needs a bigger miracle than Wille Mays Hays learning how to steal bases, Rick Vaughn getting glasses, and Jake Taylor's knees holding up for them to get to the postseason.

[Frobby]

This team does not need a miracle. It just has to play to its potential.

I have no problem with discussions about building a champion team. What gets me is people saying the team can't contend this year when they are 4 game out. That is a losers attitude. I bet Buck wouldn't listen to it.

First of all, I don't see most posters in this thread saying that the Orioles have no chance to contend this year. You are the one making grand pronouncements about what "OriolesHangout" believes. There is no consensus on Orioles Hangout about just about anything. Second of all, what fans believe and discuss on a message board does not affect how the team plays. What the team believes does affect how they play to some extent. So, what Buck will "listen to" has nothing to do with what is posted here. By the way, if Buck was still an ESPN analyst, and was asked about the Orioles' chances of contending this year, he'd say something completely different than what he would say as the manager of the team, don't you think?

[wildcard]

As a pure fan, I'm right on board with you...but when playing arm chair GM you can't build your stratagy on nothing but positive what if's.

As to the debate in this thread....I can't see Andy throwing in the towl on this current rebuild, and I can't see Buck taking the job and less than a year in giving up on tghe current crop. My guess is more of the same. Replacing DLee, and Vlad with grade B or C free agents, resigning Hardy, and giving 2012 a shot with the same "core".

If Vlad and Lee don't do better over the next 4 months then what they have done so far I doubt they are on next years team. I doubt they are replaced by a two more old guys. Seeing how Hardy and Reynolds are helping the team I would expect more trades for guys 30 or under.

[nadecir]

The Orioles are two games below .500, while playing one of the easier schedules so far in the major leagues.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi

We've played ten more home games than away games. Our expected winning percentage as of this date is .427, which ranks next to last in the AL, only ahead of the Twins. We've got to play much better for the remainder of the season against a much tougher remaining schedule in order to finish .500, let alone compete this season.

A 2% chance for the playoffs sounds about right. Our best realistic hope is to finish the season strong with some strong second-half performances from our core to give us a chance at making some real waves next year.

[Dwight Schrute]

First of all, I don't see most posters in this thread saying that the Orioles have no chance to contend this year. You are the one making grand pronouncements about what "OriolesHangout" believes. There is no consensus on Orioles Hangout about just about anything. Second of all, what fans believe and discuss on a message board does not affect how the team plays. What the team believes does affect how they play to some extent. So, what Buck will "listen to" has nothing to do with what is posted here. By the way, if Buck was still an ESPN analyst, and was asked about the Orioles' chances of contending this year, he'd say something completely different than what he would say as the manager of the team, don't you think?

/thread

[Say O!]

It's very frustrating to me that this team was in such a nice position two years ago and has done essentially nothing to continue to grow their chances of competing in the division. I guess O's fans can pray that Toronto's and Tampa's young talent will fall flat, but I can't honestly look at these five AL East organizations and expect Baltimore to finish higher than 4th in any given year in the near future.

The wildcard, I guess, is Bundy/Machado turning into legit perennial all-star candidates. That's essentially the franchise resting on these two kids developing to their utmost. Here's hoping lady luck is going to give the O's a lightening-in-a-bottle season in conjunction with these two developing, arriving and producing within the next two years...

2014

C: Wieters

1B:

2B:

SS: Machado

3B: Schoop

RF: Markakis

CF: Jones

LF: Reimold

SP: Matusz

SP: Britton

SP: Arrietta

SP: Bundy

SP: Bundy

CL: Johnson

RP: Klein

RP: Schrader

Depending on how 1B, 2B, DH are augmented, you can win with this roster. Only Jones is not team-controlled (yet) for 2014, and it's the last year for Wieters and Matusz (if I'm calculating service time correctly). Could switch Schoop to 2B, and hope for Esposito at 3B.

[TakebackOPACY]

This team does not need a miracle. It just has to play to its potential.

Frobby mentioned BP mathematically determines we have a 2% chance. That's a 49:1 shot. It's fun to hope but most fans are going to keep their money in their wallet until those odds are increased.

I have no problem with discussions about building a champion team. What gets me is people saying the team can't contend this year when they are 4 game out.

If you have no problem with discussions about building a champion team then don't tell others that they have committed "mutiny" or have "given up on the team we have been loyal to all these years" when others engage in those discussions and consider all options.

That is a losers attitude. I bet Buck wouldn't listen to it.

Building a team that's a 49:1 long shot and then saying we shouldn't at least consider certain methods of improvement because this team has a chance to win it all... that's a loser's attitude.

[carolinaoriole]

Let it be recorded. The OriolesHangout gave up on the 2011 season on June 10th with the O's 4 games out of the Wild Card.

1. There is no consideration that BRob may return to the team like he did last year. Only this year he may return to a .500 team and try to boost it to the playoffs.

2. The Hangout gives up before they see the impact of Matusz returning to join Guthrie, Britton and Arrieta.

3. The Hangout gives up even though the bullpen is pitching well including Gregg, Koji, Johnson and Accardo.

4. The Hangout gives up with Jones establishing himself in the 3 hole in the lineup.

5. The Hangout just plain gives up of Markakis doing anything this year.

6. The Hangout gives up as Reynolds and Hardy are surging.

7. The Hangout gives up as Wieters shows he is the best catcher in he AL East.

8. The Hangout doesn't value Reimold contribution in left even though his numbers since his return are good.

9. The Hangout gives up before Lee and Reynolds face the NL pitchers they are familar with.

I am sorry I can't join the mutiny. Not at 4 games out. Not until we see more. You all may be prophets and be proven right but I just don't think it time to give up on the talent on this team. I will wait to make a judgement.

Go O's.

I agree with all of the above.

[carolinaoriole]

Absolutely he would be.

MacPhail convinced Angelos that they didn't need Tex.

And he was right.