The 'GM' Situation

[JTrea81]

Notice he talks about drafting well and being involved internationally, but he doesn't say anything about getting the "premium bats".

when the right free agent presents itself, if it all works out, you have to do it.

There have been multiple opportunities for the Orioles when the right free agent presented themselves, and MacPhail refused to pull the trigger.

Mark Teixeira and Matt Holliday stand out the most as 1B, LF and the #4 spot continue to be issues for this club.

[wildcard]

MacPhail has been pretty straight forward with this approach. 1) Grow the arms, 2) Buy the bats. He really has not gotten past #1 yet. He is still trying to do that. Uehara is traded. He wants a starter in return. Guthrie is on the market. He wants a starter in return.

The bats buying phase is early in its cycle. I think he felt he could get a surplus of arms and trade them for bats. It hasn't happen yet. He is still trying to get 5 starters that will be the foundation.

I agree that his plan has taken longer then he hoped to develop, but I think he picked the right approach for the situation (considering the payroll and competition).

He has pretty close to equal portions of success and failure in spending money on players. The bad with Gonzo, Vlad and Lee. The good with Hardy, Jones, Scott, and Reynolds. Unfortunately that will not move the team up in this division. The young players have to develop and for the most part they haven't been able to take over important, stabilizing roles.

People that think Buck will do better have to answer the question that if Buck can't pick a pitching coach how is he the right guy to bring in the talent?

I don't know if MacPhail goes or not. There could be a redefining of roles in the management chain. MacPhail does one important thing that I think PA likes. He is good with the finances. I think Buck with a checkbook may bankruptcy the team. Though spending money on players sounds good. The Diamondback's bankruptcy didn't really help the team long term and is not something the PA will be happy about.

[Sports Guy]

There have been multiple opportunities for the Orioles when the right free agent presented themselves, and MacPhail refused to pull the trigger.

Mark Teixeira and Matt Holliday stand out the most as 1B, LF and the #4 spot continue to be issues for this club.

The way you ignore PA in all of this is so pathetic.

[El Gordo]

The way you ignore PA in all of this is so pathetic.

Really. The problem seems to be AM didn't offer the $$$ necessary to land Tex. Can anyone imagine PA authorizing 8/200 M to do this?

[JTrea81]

The way you ignore PA in all of this is so pathetic.

Show me evidence he's pulling the strings.

I know you've heard things, but unless you have proof that he told MacPhail "you can't sign Tex and Holliday," you can't say it's entirely Angelos' fault.

MacPhail by his very nature is more conservative than Angelos and I do blame Angelos for hiring him so he's to blame there.

But the non-aggressive pursuits of Teixeira and Holliday are MacPhail's to bear as he's the one responsible for negotiating with the players and agents, not Peter Angelos.

[JTrea81]

Really. The problem seems to be AM didn't offer the $$$ necessary to land Tex. Can anyone imagine PA authorizing 8/200 M to do this?

I could see it if MacPhail asked him for it and told him it was a good idea.

But that's not the way he rolls. And Peter Angelos doesn't seem to have a problem with people asking him to spend less...

[El Gordo]

Show me evidence he's pulling the strings.

I know you've heard things, but unless you have proof that he told MacPhail "you can't sign Tex and Holliday," you can't say it's entirely Angelos' fault.

MacPhail by his very nature is more conservative than Angelos and I do blame Angelos for hiring him so he's to blame there.

But the non-aggressive pursuits of Teixeira and Holliday are MacPhail's to bear as he's the one responsible for negotiating with the players and agents, not Peter Angelos.

This from a Grimed1 post gave me pause:

The O's under Angelos became notorious for a dysfunctional development system. One infamous incident came when Erik Bedard, their top prospect at the time, was playing at Bowie. In one game, Bedard reached his mandatory pitch count, but manager Dave Cash sent him back out to start the next inning. On the second or third pitch, Bedard blew out his elbow. Cash and the pitching coach were fired a day or two later.

I see a lot of games at Frederick and Bowie, and until the last couple years the Pirates' farm teams consistently embarrassed the Orioles'. The O's have made some progress recently, though. The Pirates never had the kind of dismal reputation the O's have had over the Angelos years, although I suspect things may have started falling apart the last couple years under DL. NH's decision to fire Brian Graham clearly surprised a lot of people, so I'm guessing NH found some things he didn't like.

The same O's that lost their AAA farm team because of bad baseball. Teams that refused to play at the O's minor leaugue Spring Training complex. The team that took twenty years to finally get a ST home.

Stan Charles said that when MacPhail was hired that Angelos told him he had to keep certain people in their jobs. I think Stockstill and a few others are still around. http://onlybucs.net/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3175.0

Also from things I've heard Duquette say on XM recently.

[Sports Guy]

Show me evidence he's pulling the strings.

I know you've heard things, but unless you have proof that he told MacPhail "you can't sign Tex and Holliday," you can't say it's entirely Angelos' fault.

MacPhail by his very nature is more conservative than Angelos and I do blame Angelos for hiring him so he's to blame there.

But the non-aggressive pursuits of Teixeira and Holliday are MacPhail's to bear as he's the one responsible for negotiating with the players and agents, not Peter Angelos.

LOL..You are so clueless. Do you know that PA owned the team before AM became the GM?

Your knowledge of what has happened since 1998 is absurd. You really have no business discussing this if you want to ignore that.

[Sports Guy]

I could see it if MacPhail asked him for it and told him it was a good idea.

But that's not the way he rolls. And Peter Angelos doesn't seem to have a problem with people asking him to spend less...

If PA is so willing to spend money, why didn't he tell AM that he can go much higher on Tex?

[JTrea81]

If PA is so willing to spend money, why didn't he tell AM that he can go much higher on Tex?

Was that Angelos' or MacPhail's decision? IIRC MacPhail convinced Angelos not to spend on Teixeira, that they were more than just one player away...

[JTrea81]

LOL..You are so clueless. Do you know that PA owned the team before AM became the GM?

Your knowledge of what has happened since 1998 is absurd. You really have no business discussing this if you want to ignore that.

Pre-MacPhail The Orioles spent money in free agency and disregarded the farm system.

Then MacPhail came in and the Orioles stopped spending money in free agency and relied too heavily on the farm system.

Industry sources say that Angelos is getting impatient and wants to win now. If he's told MacPhail he can't spend, and agrees with what he's doing, then why is he impatient with the results? One would think he would want to keep MacPhail if he's still making a profit despite the losing if he liked the non-aggressive way the Orioles were going about their business.

Angelos saw that spending at least led to more wins than the Orioles have now, and that when he gave the checkbook to somebody like Gillick to spend, the results were there - the Orioles went to the ALCS twice.

I could see him being convinced by Buck to do that again, and Hart be given the checkbook to go get what Buck wants.

[Sports Guy]

Pre-MacPhail The Orioles spent money in free agency and disregarded the farm system.Then MacPhail came in and the Orioles stopped spending money in free agency and relied too heavily on the farm system.

Industry sources say that Angelos is getting impatient and wants to win now. If he's told MacPhail he can't spend, and agrees with what he's doing, then why is he impatient with the results? One would think he would want to keep MacPhail if he's still making a profit despite the losing if he liked the non-aggressive way the Orioles were going about their business.

Angelos saw that spending at least led to more wins than the Orioles have now, and that when he gave the checkbook to somebody like Gillick to spend, the results were there - the Orioles went to the ALCS twice.

I could see him being convinced by Buck to do that again, and Hart be given the checkbook to go get what Buck wants.

The payroll is the same now as it has always been.

The only player that AM has basically not signed is a guy like Tejada...And there is zero doubt that if a bargain top level FA was available that he would go after them.

The problem is, that player hasn't existed on the market since AM took over the team. You forget, that this was an organization that said Vlad was a luxury and his contract was very manageable.

Sorry but of all the arguments that you are wrong about, this one takes the cake. You couldn't possibily be more wrong about the PA/AM angle than you are.

PA has never been ok with pushing the payroll to the place you want it to be.

[Sports Guy]

Was that Angelos' or MacPhail's decision? IIRC MacPhail convinced Angelos not to spend on Teixeira, that they were more than just one player away...

It was both...Thinking otherwise is foolish.

[BaysoxFan39]

Here you go:

1. You have to have a owner willing to spend the bucks needed and then step away and let the baseball personnel do their job.

2. You have to have a GM that is forward thinking with the understanding the minor league system is where championships are "grown". Where you make the most bang for your buck with good drafts, good player development and the understanding you TRADE your good players/fan popular players to contenders in July before they become average to get top prospects for your organization.

3. You need a farm director that can develop young talent.

4. You need a guy capable of drafting quality players in the far away places with the later round picks.

5. You need scouts that can set up repores with HS and College coaches in the far reaches of rural America that can tip you on a kid with raw talent that can be the steal of the draft.

When the Orioles think in this manner we will pull ourselves to respectability again. In fairness the Orioles already know this and of course is applying these methods. Unfortunately they may need to make some management changes to upgrade and refreshen the efforts going forward.

[ShaneDawg85]

Frankly I think Hart just ran off plenty of reasons why he won't be GM of the Orioles, and enough reasons why any sane person wouldn't want to be. "It has to be the right situation." How is this the right situation? How is working for Peter G. Angelos the right situation? It never has been, and it never will be.