BA: Adam Jones 2nd best defensive OF in the AL

[El Gordo]

I am done with this thread. I have already said it is the best data available. I just don't trust it as much as I would field F/X. Once that comes out, I won't argue the merit of the stats.

What will be the big difference with Field FX? As I undertsand it, it will mean uniform camera angles from park to park, and specific velocities on every ball hit. More granular, but essentailly the same methodology employed, no?

[CA-ORIOLE]

Are people really raging about an Orioles player receiving some praise? Seriously?

More like people trying to have an honest debate. Seriously.

[AgentOrange]

What will be th big difference with Field FX? As I undertsand it, it will mean uniform camera angles from park to park, and specific velocities on every ball hit. More granular, but essentailly the same methodology employed, no?

To my understanding, it will tell you exactly how far each player goes for a ball, how quick the reaction time, the angle of the jump... I feel like those things will make these defensive statistics even stronger.

[CA-ORIOLE]

What will be th big difference with Field FX? As I undertsand it, it will mean uniform camera angles from park to park, and specific velocities on every ball hit. More granular, but essentailly the same methodology employed, no?

Yeah, that's the way I see it. Field F/X isn't a scoring/rating system, it's a data collection system. Unless it's the genisis of a new system/methodology, I see it as a way of improving data inputs to the existing ones, primarily UZR and FB's.

[El Gordo]

To my understanding, it will tell you exactly how far each player goes for a ball, how quick the reaction time, the angle of the jump... I feel like those things will make these defensive statistics even stronger.

This is irrelevant IMO. What matters is whether the play is made. If player X reacts later but runs faster than player Y and still makes the play on ball hit to vector Z, so what. They both made the play. Player Y will get better reads and get to the same number of balls as faster player X does, so they will be equal. If one player goes farther for the same ball, it probably means he is out of position.

[AgentOrange]

This is irrelevant IMO. What matters is whether the play is made. If player X reacts later but runs faster than player Y and still makes the play on ball hit to vector Z, so what. They both made the play. Player Y will get better reads and get to the same number of balls as faster player X does, so they will be equal. If one player goes farther for the same ball, it probably means he is out of position.

We are not on the same page then. I think it will give a better value to each play made. So we can really see if Jones' "flashy plays" were a play that another CF would make look routine or not.

I don't see how you can say a player is out of position because he goes further for a ball. Positioning is dependant on a lot of things.

[DrOrioles90210]

I am done with this thread. I have already said it is the best data available. I just don't trust it as much as I would field F/X. Once that comes out, I won't argue the merit of the stats.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to wear you down. I guess I just trust the general assumptions you can make with that data. It seems like enough goes into it at this point for me.

[El Gordo]

We are not on the same page then. I think it will give a better value to each play made. So we can really see if Jones' "flashy plays" were a play that another CF would make look routine or not.

I don't see how you can say a player is out of position because he goes further for a ball. Positioning is dependant on a lot of things.

What matters is whether the play is made on a ball hit at the same velocity to the same place on the field, or not. How the play is made, or how far a player runs to make it doesn't matter. It may tell you something about player's realative skill sets e.g. reaction time , speed, etc. but what matters is how well they make use of what they have.

[CA-ORIOLE]

We are not on the same page then. I think it will give a better value to each play made. So we can really see if Jones' "flashy plays" were a play that another CF would make look routine or not.

I don't see how you can say a player is out of position because he goes further for a ball. Positioning is dependant on a lot of things.

The positioning aspect is definitely an interesting one. At least some of it would seam to fall on team scouting/coaching and the effectivenss of the pitchers to locate with respect to the positioning. I have no doubt some teams are better at this than others. Part of Jone's problem is he's dumbly positioned. FB routinely has shown too many fly balls over his head and it's not a matter of the team/coaches not being aware of it. Since those balls are weighted more (as likely extra base hits), it may not be Jones is not as deficient as we think in not making less overall plays, but that he misses more plays with heavier negative weighting.

[DrOrioles90210]

I agree to a point. Yet the CFer has to also worry about the mound when throwing the ball. I was at the Molina game, he was pretty far back. Any other runner would have been safe with no problem. I think its unfair to say Jones was the reason the run scored there.

Its like a double play, it should never be assumed. That throw was a tough one to make, it was pretty far away.

I agree about the mound and that any other runner would be safe, but I still feel the same about the throws in general. I mainly used that specific example because it was recent and I remembered it first.

[AgentOrange]

What matters is whether the play is made on a ball hit at the same velocity to the same place on the field, or not. How the play is made, or how far a player runs to make it doesn't matter. It may tell you something about player's realative skill sets e.g. reactioon time , speed, etc. but what matters is how well they make use of what they have.

I think that is false. Its not that black and white. I think it does matter how far a player runs to get to the ball. You can't call a players positioning wrong based on where the ball was hit. They might be in the position based on hitters tendancies or how the pitcher is performing that day, or even the pitch itself. It a pitcher throws a mistake pitch and allows a dead pull hitter to hit it into a gap in the D, the fielder shouldn't be penalized. Knowing how far the player had to travel will give the data collectors a better indication on how routine the play was.

[DrOrioles90210]

We are not on the same page then. I think it will give a better value to each play made. So we can really see if Jones' "flashy plays" were a play that another CF would make look routine or not.

I don't see how you can say a player is out of position because he goes further for a ball. Positioning is dependant on a lot of things.

Exactly. Player X with bad reaction but good speed and player Y with good reaction and less speed both make that play. However, player Z with good reaction and good speed will make a play that neither player X nor player Y will make.

Field F/X will be able to show why player X/Y/Z made or didn't make the play.

[AgentOrange]

The positioning aspect is definitely an interesting one. At least some of it would seam to fall on team scouting/coaching and the effectivenss of the pitchers to locate with respect to the positioning. I have no doubt some teams are better at this than others. Part of Jone's problem is he's dumbly positioned. FB routinely has shown too many fly balls over his head and it's not a matter of the team/coaches not being aware of it.

But don't we have one of the worst pitching staffs in the game? Shouldn't that play into this evaulation? If he played back more to catch those balls, won't more balls fall in front of him?

[El Gordo]

The positioning aspect is definitely an interesting one. At least some of it would seam to fall on team scouting/coaching and the effectivenss of the pitchers to locate with respect to the positioning. I have no doubt some teams are better at this than others. Part of Jone's problem is he's dumbly positioned. FB routinely has shown too many fly balls over his head and it's not a matter of the team/coaches not being aware of it.

Are the FB's over his head due to positioning or poor reads? I have often seen him start in on a ball, when it is over his head. That has nothing to do with his psositioning. They have positioned him deeper in general to try to accomadate for this shortcoming. I just don't think he is all that good at judging balls off the bat.

[AgentOrange]

Are the FB's over his head due to positioning or poor reads? I have often seen him start in on a ball, when it is over his head. That has nothing to do with his psositioning. They have positioned him deeper in general to try to accomadate for this shortcoming. I just don't think he is all that good at judging balls off the bat.

Won't Field F/X be able to show exactly how Jones reacted once the ball was put into play? Do you think that will show more defensive lapses in players?