Cal Ripken: "Beltre the best third baseman he's ever seen. Sorry Brooksie."

[El Gordo]

I can definitely understand the shock and disappointment from Baltimore fans over Cal's statement. I forgive him because I don't think it was what it seemed. What we have to remember is that Cal was in his early to mid teens and he saw Brook's playing as his career was coming to an end, and the skills almost gone. What Cal saw then wasn't what many of us had seen during Robinson's career. And Cal did say "the best 'Ive' ever seen."

Brooks' last 9 full seasons, 1967-1975, were his best defensively. He avergaed 21 RS per, had one of 33 RS, another of 32. In his last full season, 1975, he was 19 RS. That covered Cal's ages 7-15.

[FR500]

Brooks' last 9 full seasons, 1967-1975, were his best defensively. He avergaed 21 RS per, had one of 33 RS, another of 32. In his last full season, 1975, he was 19 RS. That covered Cal's ages 7-15.

He WAS on the planet in 1970, wasn't he? Surely "Dad" must have told him about Brooks....

Dag, really Cal?! I have a DVD (1970 WS) you can borrow to see THE greatest 3B of all time.

[El Gordo]

He WAS on the planet in 1970, wasn't he? Surely "Dad" must have told him about Brooks....

Dag, really Cal?! I have a DVD (1970 WS) you can borrow to see THE greatest 3B of all time.

Cal's years 7-15 were my years 21-29. I saw Brooks play live, in the flesh, many times at Memorial stadium. As someone who played 3B in High School, I admired and studied Brooks play closely. I watched him off ball, as Buck would say. The plays we could see in a video from the 1970 WS, were plays he would make on a routine basis. Fans from B'more would joke about how the media was going nuts over Brooks' WS play. We saw him do that almost daily.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I think Frobby and El Gordo are on the right track. dWAR itself isn't good because it includes a replacement factor which would skew the results away from the primary defensive value we are trying to isolate. TZ to TZ (tot rate) is probably the best apples to apples comparison out there. I don't pay too much attention to BP's system because they don't publish the specifics of what they do. That said, it's notable that DRS shows Beltre at +16/year (the same 135 game rate as TZ). That rate is plus 2 better than Brooksie's career rate. Where DRS/UZR is available, I'm going to take them over TZ because DRS/UZR is simply vastly superior to TZ (the reason Bref switch to DRS as it's defensive rating system). UZR shows Beltre a little less favorably but basically equivalent in rate to Brooks' +14/year TZ rate. Unfortunately we do not have advanced metrics for Brooks and he may have blown everybody away even more if we did have them. One thing we do know (or at least what is widely thought by the smart guys) is that TZ (and UZR) give an advantage to surehandedness (FP%) which gives at least some advantage to Brooks over Beltre in TZ (but certainly not a 14 to 8 advantage).

I was at first going to declare this hands down for Brooks, but Beltre's UZR/DRS rate as compared to his TZ rate gives me pause. Also RF9 (not the best metric) as compared to league RF9 show basically the same differential. The other pretty huge factor here is we are still talking about "relative performance" of each man as compared to league performance in their respective era's. Anecdotally, I would have thought that overall defense at third base was was probably inferior in Brooks' day to what it has become now (I recall some clunkers like Bill Melton, Harmon Killebrew, Tony Perez etc. shifting over to third for offense) but RF9 rates for Beltre and Brooks actually show them slightly higher in Brooks era (though there could be many underlying reasons for that).

I think Cal is right that Beltre probably makes some plays look easier than Brooks because of his athleticism and arm. Still the styles are really contrasting and maybe that's why (besides the emotion) some people can't even bring themselves to think they are remotely close. Brooks was more of an an artist out there with his footwork and hands making up for some of his deficiencies in athleticsm and arm strength. Beltre is more of a power guy with athletcism and incredible arm strength. I think it might be closer than some people think and I'm not going to crap on Cal over his opinion.

[maybenxtyr]

Saying you disagree with Cal is one thing, but some of the stuff being said in this thread reminds me of the I'm "entitled" Red Sox type fan.

Most people here would agree that Brooks was the best at 3B, but saying some of the stuff people are saying about Cal in this thread really defines ignorance. Some people just do not deserve some of the good fortunes Baltimore sports fans have enjoyed.

[Loophole]

Geez, Brooks is probably my favorite player historically (meaning I'm too young to have seen him) and I'm sure Cal's wrong, but who cares? He was just trying to give high praise. And he's trying to present himself as an objective analyst. Saying "Well, besides Brooks, of course" would've sounded so homery, especially during an O's game.

I'm certain if you asked Brooks for his thoughts he'd say he doesn't mind or he'd act humble and agree. Either way I'm sure he didn't take it personally.

[BobbyWoontz]

He WAS on the planet in 1970, wasn't he? Surely "Dad" must have told him about Brooks....

Dag, really Cal?! I have a DVD (1970 WS) you can borrow to see THE greatest 3B of all time.

Dad not only told him about Brooks, but Dad let Cal hang around the clubhouse a good bit.

[BobbyWoontz]

Brooks never had a strong arm, but a quick, accurate arm. In fact, he was ambidextrous to a certain point. Here's what Brooks has to say about it:

"I eat left-handed, write left-handed, play Ping-Pong and tennis and shoot left-handed, so from here down, I'm pretty well coordinated. But I can't throw left-handed at all. I do everything else left-handed, and I'm sure that helped me as far as being able to get the glove in the right spot and make the plays."

http://switchpitching.blogspot.com/2012/08/ambidextrous-throwers-in-major-league.html

[cutfastball]

I saw Brooks and Ripken play countless number of games in their primes, and I interviewed them both during my sports editor days. I've seen Beltre play several times as well. Brooks' plays elicted so many "Wows," I can't tell you. Ripken, by the way, always turned me off with his calculated responses to even simple questions. And by the way, if Earl hadn't moved him to shortstop, he'd never be in the Hall of Fame. Brooks got there almost on defense alone. Just my humble or not so humble opinion.

[Loophole]

I saw Brooks and Ripken play countless number of games in their primes, and I interviewed them both during my sports editor days. I've seen Beltre play several times as well. Brooks' plays elicted so many "Wows," I can't tell you. Ripken, by the way, always turned me off with his calculated responses to even simple questions. And by the way, if Earl hadn't moved him to shortstop, he'd never be in the Hall of Fame. Brooks got there almost on defense alone. Just my humble or not so humble opinion.

Dear lord. Are we kidding with this? Cal suddenly isn't a town hero anymore? He has one disagreeable opinion and you're gonna start airing out your long-latent hatred of him?

Y'all are basically acting like I imagine OldFan would have acted if he were still here.

[El Gordo]

Dear lord. Are we kidding with this? Cal suddenly isn't a town hero anymore? He has one disagreeable opinion and you're gonna start airing out your long-latent hatred of him?

Y'all are basically acting like I imagine OldFan would have acted if he were still here.

I have no problem with Cal or Carl, or whoever it was expressing his opinion. It's the "Sorry Brooksie" that ticked me off. If he hadjust said Beltre was the best 3B he had ever seen, fine. He never really saw Brooks at his best. The "Sorry Brooksie" was in poor taste and unnecessary, especially coming less than a week after Brooks' Lengends ceremony. Poeple who don't have a problem with this most likely never saw Brooks play in person, and grew up with Cal as there B'more baseabll icon. I watched them both play and Brooks is still mine. Anybody here who watched Brooks play regularly, agree with Cal that Beltre has the better glove?

[Loophole]

I have no problem with Cal or Carl, or whoever it was expressing his opinion. It's the "Sorry Brooksie" that ticked me off. If he hadjust said Beltre was the best 3B he had ever seen, fine. He never really saw Brooks at his best. The "Sorry Brooksie" was in poor taste and unnecessary, especially coming less than a week after Brooks' Lengends ceremony. Poeple who don't have a problem with this most likely never saw Brooks play in person, and grew up with Cal as there B'more baseabll icon. I watched them both play and Brooks is still mine. Anybody here who watched Brooks play regularly, agree with Cal that Beltre has the better glove?

The rightness or wrongness of what he said doesn't seem to be the issue. Ballplayers have wrong opinions all the time.

I just wonder if anyone thinks Brooks himself gives half a $%(^ about it.

[Spoonless]

I think Cal was just trying a bit too hard to make sure to be non-partisan. Now, I never saw Brooks play, so while I'm a fairly big Orioles fan, I don't have the personal basis of reference to be much offended by him saying Beltre is better. Of course, I've never had a problem with current players being lauded as "the best ever seen" over players of eras past, in any sports. In any case, Cal would have probably been better served by saying that Beltre was the best 3B he'd ever seen and not mentioning Robinson at all.

[Bradysburns]

How dare he state his own opinion.

He's welcome to state his opinion all day - if it's an idiotic one, he will get called out on it. And that... is why we have a message board.

[Sideburns]

Just national TV banter. I hope.