Every time I watch Posey hit...

[Frobby]

It makes sense, I just don't hold out much hope.

No, he's not Brad Ausmus. However I don't think Brad Ausmus ever put up minor league numbers like Wieters did.

I'm over Matt Wieters' minor league numbers. It was one year. Chris Davis had a .971 MiL OPS in more than 2000 PA. It doesn't always translate to the majors. I'm just happy we have an excellent all-around catcher and if he's not Buster Posey that's just too bad. He's good enough to be one of the best players on a team that won 93 games, that's all I need to know.

[jjnono]

Posey was drafted 5th overall, just like Wieters.

And didn't we pass on him?

[PaulFolk]

And didn't we pass on him?

Yes...because we had Wieters.

[jjnono]

Let me ask this question - if he weren't a catcher, what would Wieters be worth? He's a major knee injury or a bad back away from playing first base. And then, quite frankly, he's basically a journeyman at best, certainly not a top-tier player. I'm probably in the extreme minority here, but if the O's traded him right now for a TOTR starter, I wouldn't be heartbroken...

[jjnono]

Yes...because we had Wieters.

Point well taken. I had the drafts exactly backward.

[El Gordo]

I don't think people understand just how great a catcher Matt Wieters is. He is a team leader, a great handler of pitchers, a superb defensive catcher, with an great arm that freezes the running game, allows few passed balls and wild pitches, and hits for power, with a league average OPS. His offense will improve, I am sure. He is one of the O's best bets for HOF in the future.

[Annie]

I don't think people understand just how great a catcher Matt Wieters is. He is a team leader, a great handler of pitchers, a superb defensive catcher, with an great arm that freezes the running game, allows few passed balls and wild pitches, and hits for power, with a league average OPS. His offense will improve, I am sure. He is one of the O's best bets for HOF in the future.

this is pretty much my opinion, as well. I mean, I totally get that people are disappointed with Wieters offensively, it's understandable. Personally, I've stopped comparing him to what I wish he was and just appreciate him for what he is and what I think (hope) he will be. Defensively, Wieters is golden. One of (if not THE most) difficult positions on the field. Quality catchers are so difficult to find and we are really so lucky to have him IMO.

all that being said, what are the forums for if not to dissect our players? :rolleyestf:

[Spy Fox]

Wieters has not grown into the offensive star we hoped, that's for certain. But he's perhaps the least of my worries among any of our key players. I have to think every other team except SF, Min, and MAYBE Stl would trade their C and more for Wieters without thinking twice

[Annie]

Let me ask this question - if he weren't a catcher, what would Wieters be worth? He's a major knee injury or a bad back away from playing first base. And then, quite frankly, he's basically a journeyman at best, certainly not a top-tier player. I'm probably in the extreme minority here, but if the O's traded him right now for a TOTR starter, I wouldn't be heartbroken...

let's be thankful he hasn't had a major knee injury, then.

as for a trade. I can't see Dan or Buck supporting that idea, thankfully.

[wildcard]

Are you suggesting that a few days of cooler weather - and they would only be a few, because the average September high temperature in Baltimore is still 92 degrees with humidity ranging from 55%-85% - is enough to offset the cumulative effects of roughly 110 full games behind the plate? I guess that could have a small beneficial effect, but isn't the thrust of your argument that the number of innings he catches is excessive, and by implication fewer innings would provide a more meaningful comparison to Buster Posey?

It's reasonable to hypothesize that the wear and tear of a long season behind the plate will have a detrimental effect on the offensive production of a ML catcher. There's just no evidence to conclude that's true in Weiters' case. If anything his first half/second half splits are strikingly similar and that implies that we are seeing what he is as a player, not that he's overworked.

But what is the average temperature at 7-10 pm when the O's play?

[wildcard]

A better theory is that Wieters wears down in the hot weather. That would explain his career .809 OPS in April and .852 in September. But frankly, I don't want to hear excuses. His offense is above average for a catcher, just not stellar. There are a lot of catchers who did their best hitting beginning in their late 20's, while other guys peaked early. We'll just have to see whether Wieters gets any better offensively, or whether he is what he is.

2013 is the season that should tell. He will be 27. He probably will not get better than that playing the number of games he plays. If at some point he plays fewer games at catcher that might improve his offense.

[24fps]

But what is the average temperature at 7-10 pm when the O's play?

Gee, I don't know. Let's see, the difference between the average daily temperature in Baltimore from August to September is 6 degrees, something that can be determined by spending 30 seconds using Google. Humidity remains a *****. If your point is that Weiters' remarkably consistent first half/second half splits are significantly dependent on a 6 degree temperature differential in a city and a time where he suffers roughly 10% of his annual workload, then we're all dying to hear your reasoning and have a look at the evidence supporting your conclusions.

[24fps]

A better theory is that Wieters wears down in the hot weather. That would explain his career .809 OPS in April and .852 in September. But frankly, I don't want to hear excuses. His offense is above average for a catcher, just not stellar. There are a lot of catchers who did their best hitting beginning in their late 20's, while other guys peaked early. We'll just have to see whether Wieters gets any better offensively, or whether he is what he is.

Or his .809 OPS in April means he's facing pitching that hasn't fully gotten into regular season shape and in September he's facing pitching that has tired from the wear and tear of the regular season, or he's facing AAAA pitching from clubs that are out of the running and giving innings to pitchers in evaluation mode. If we're going to go adventuring, then to me this seems to be a more plausible explanation then some climatological theory.

[gfrank]

You know, if Wieters just duplicates what he's done the last two years over the next 10 we'd be looking at a catcher with 300 career home runs, 1000 RBI, 12 Gold Gloves, 12 All Star appearances, and a pretty decent case for the hall of fame. And that's assuming no improvement, just what we have right now, year in and year out. Stretch that until he's 40 and you have a guy that is a virtual lock for the hall of fame.

Seasons like Posey had this year is rarely sustainable for a catcher, particularly one strong defensively, and not something you can really fairly expect. Carlton Fisk only hit 30 home runs once in his career, batted .300 only once in a qualifying season, never led the league in anything meaningful(except HBP in '80 and Passed Balls in '83), topped 100 RBIs only twice, was awarded only one gold glove, and never won a world series, only making the playoffs twice. From year to year, Fisk wasn't really a spectacular baseball player, but with catchers it's definitely more the big picture stuff, less the numbers bolded in black ink. See also Gary Carter if it suits you better.

I'm not worried, and nobody else should be either. Matt Wieters is a superior all-around catcher. He does everything well, and some things unusually well, in a position where you're rather lucky if you can get anything. You'll be meeting kids with the words "Matt" and "Wieters" in their name if we keep getting these not-as-impressive-as-Posey seasons out of this guy.

[Moose Milligan]

You know, if Wieters just duplicates what he's done the last two years over the next 10 we'd be looking at a catcher with 300 career home runs, 1000 RBI, 12 Gold Gloves, 12 All Star appearances, and a pretty decent case for the hall of fame. And that's assuming no improvement, just what we have right now, year in and year out. Stretch that until he's 40 and you have a guy that is a virtual lock for the hall of fame.

Seasons like Posey had this year is rarely sustainable for a catcher, particularly one strong defensively, and not something you can really fairly expect. Carlton Fisk only hit 30 home runs once in his career, batted .300 only once in a qualifying season, never led the league in anything meaningful(except HBP in '80 and Passed Balls in '83), topped 100 RBIs only twice, was awarded only one gold glove, and never won a world series, only making the playoffs twice. From year to year, Fisk wasn't really a spectacular baseball player, but with catchers it's definitely more the big picture stuff, less the numbers bolded in black ink. See also Gary Carter if it suits you better.

I'm not worried, and nobody else should be either. Matt Wieters is a superior all-around catcher. He does everything well, and some things unusually well, in a position where you're rather lucky if you can get anything. You'll be meeting kids with the words "Matt" and "Wieters" in their name if we keep getting these not-as-impressive-as-Posey seasons out of this guy.

Now this is a good post/argument. Well done. Need to hope that Wieters has a lengthy career, though. So far he's been durable.

The one thing I'll say about Fisk is...he's got a signature moment that a lot of people remember and for some reason I believe that counts when HoF voters are voting, right or wrong. I think if it's Gary Carter waving that ball fair instead, Carter doesn't have as long of a wait to get in the HoF.