Carrie Muskat says Cubs and Orioles are still talking.

[allstar1579]

No doubt with 4 to 5 more above average starts last year (which was more than common for him), Bedard was Cy Young winner.

Bedard was def. in the race when he got shut down, but even with those above average starts it's a close call, and really when has a close call gone the way of an Oriole in the past 10 years?

[Roll Tide]

Wins are a horrible measure of pitching ability

Rich Hill was behind only Matt Cain in worst run support last year

Cain 3.2 R/game

Hill 3.42 R/game

I agree a Hill for Bedard deal would be done instantaneously by the Cubs, however that's not in question, the O's are demanding a lot more and Bedard's not worth "a lot more" than Hill

Can anybody tell me what Bedard's run support was in 2007????

[davearm]

No doubt with 4 to 5 more above average starts last year (which was more than common for him), Bedard was Cy Young winner.

Setting aside for a moment whether or not Bedard *should* have won the award if he stayed healthy through September, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that in all likelihood he *would not* have won over Beckett.

Considering how a lot of voters decide this stuff, Bedard wasn't going to out-vote Beckett or Sabathia.

So let's just move on from this "no doubt" hyperbole. Not only was there considerable doubt, but it was a longshot.

[SrMeowMeow]

I hope the rumored ongoing talks between the O's and Cubs in the original post aren't like the ones going on between O's and Cubs fans in this thread...this is getting unpleasant.

Obviously we all overrate our (our team's) players. Can't we just accept that and move on without making a spectacle of this thread?

[Roll Tide]

This is sarcasm, correct?

Joey what is your guy saying about the deal now?

[Rob H]

Joey,

I think you add depth and insight to our message board. I wouldn't trade Roberts for Hill straight up if I were the Cubs, but saying that Hill will be better than Bedard is like saying Bedard will be better than Santana. Jones will be a better player than Pie in my opinion, but I wouldn't trade Roberts for Pie straight up if I were the Cubs either. It is not that Roberts is a better second baseman than Pie will ever be a center fielder. It is the lack of premium center fielders that fuels my arguement. Someone name me 5 CF's you would take over the top 5 RF's or LF's. I can name a few, but not many. Now someone name me 5 DH's you would take over the top 5 center fielders. The Cubs do not need asecond baseman enough to trade either Hill or Pie. The only way Hill or Pie come back to Baltimore is through a Bedard deal. I do not love the return either. Bedard was 13-5 with the 3.16 ERA in the American League East, on a bad team. Hill was 11-8 with a 3.92 ERA in the NL. Put himin the AL East and his ERA inflates into the low 4.25's. The Cubs won 16 more games than Baltimore. Rich Hill started 4 more games, but had less more wins than Bedard. They are about the same age, Bedard 28, Hill 27. If the Orioles called and said Bedard for Hill, Bedard would be a Cub tomorrow morning. I like Hill a lot also, but I could name another 5-10 American League starters I would want before Hill.

According to ESPN's stats page, Hill got 3.65 runs of support per start (good for 70th out of 76 pitchers with more than 100 IP)

Bedard got 4.60 runs per game.

You can't really hold the Cubs' offense against Hill's W-L record.

[davearm]

I hope the rumored ongoing talks between the O's and Cubs in the original post aren't like the ones going on between O's and Cubs fans in this thread...this is getting unpleasant.

Obviously we all overrate our (our team's) players. Can't we just accept that and move on without making a spectacle of this thread?

JMHO, but it seems to me that the only hope now of a deal being resurrected is for Bedard to be traded first. That's what's been said all along anyway.

And even that wouldn't assure anything.

And the Bedard situation is not looking particularly hopeful right now (IMO).

[Pickles]

Ortiz

Thomas

Hafner

Sheffield

Thome

Those 5 are the only DH's with .800 OPS's, much less .900...there are quite a few piss-poor DH's

And they all hit better than the best hitting pitcher. If you NL guys can't seem to wrap your minds around the fact that facing a DH as oppossed to a pitcher 3-4 times a game doesn't- WITHOUT A DOUBT- make it more difficult to supress runs than I don't know what I can do for you.

And yes, some pitchers will go from the AL to the NL and have better years but that doesn't mean that its easier to pitch in the NL. It means they had a better year; pitchers do flucuate for no go reason at all at times. It's a stupid argument to even make.

[redwhitenblue]

According to ESPN's stats page, Hill got 3.65 runs of support per start (good for 70th out of 76 pitchers with more than 100 IP)

Bedard got 4.60 runs per game.

You can't really hold the Cubs' offense against Hill's W-L record.

I have 3.42, with only Cain ahead of him

[redwhitenblue]

And they all hit better than the best hitting pitcher. If you NL guys can't seem to wrap your minds around the fact that facing a DH as oppossed to a pitcher 3-4 times a game doesn't- WITHOUT A DOUBT- make it more difficult to supress runs than I don't know what I can do for you.

And yes, some pitchers will go from the AL to the NL and have better years but that doesn't mean that its easier to pitch in the NL. It means they had a better year; pitchers do flucuate for no go reason at all at times. It's a stupid argument to even make.

Actually no, the best hitting pitcher was Micah Owings with a .333/.349/.683/1.033 line

[SevisonJN]

Wins are a horrible measure of pitching ability

Rich Hill was behind only Matt Cain in worst run support last year

Cain 3.2 R/game

Hill 3.42 R/game

I agree a Hill for Bedard deal would be done instantaneously by the Cubs, however that's not in question, the O's are demanding a lot more and Bedard's not worth "a lot more" than Hill

That is due to the Orioles stupidity. While wins may be the worst measure of a pitchers ability, ERA has to be the most important. Bedard trumped him by three quarters of a run in a weaker hitting division. Hill averaged 3.65 RPG, Bedard 4.60. You got me there. Hill pitched in 33 games, allowing fewer than 3 runs in 21 games. Bedard pitched in 28 games, allowing 3 runs or fewer in 21 of them with 5 of them shutouts.

[davearm]

And they all hit better than the best hitting pitcher. If you NL guys can't seem to wrap your minds around the fact that facing a DH as oppossed to a pitcher 3-4 times a game doesn't- WITHOUT A DOUBT- make it more difficult to supress runs than I don't know what I can do for you.

And yes, some pitchers will go from the AL to the NL and have better years but that doesn't mean that its easier to pitch in the NL. It means they had a better year; pitchers do flucuate for no go reason at all at times. It's a stupid argument to even make.

The stat was provided earlier. The AL produces like 0.2 additional runs per game relative to the NL. That's a rough proxy for the impact of the DH.

[Roll Tide]

JMHO, but it seems to me that the only hope now of a deal being resurrected is for Bedard to be traded first. That's what's been said all along anyway.

And even that wouldn't assure anything.

And the Bedard situation is not looking particularly hopeful right now (IMO).

Actually it is looking ok see the thread MLB.com says Bedard talks still on

[redwhitenblue]

That is due to the Orioles stupidity. While wins may be the worst measure of a pitchers ability, ERA has to be the most important. Bedard trumped him by three quarters of a run in a weaker hitting division. Hill averaged 3.65 RPG, Bedard 4.60. You got me there. Hill pitched in 33 games, allowing fewer than 3 runs in 21 games. Bedard pitched in 28 games, allowing 3 runs or fewer in 21 of them with 5 of them shutouts.

Nah, ERA isn't THE most important, but it is important, and no one compared Bedard's '07 to Hill's '07, I compared them at similar ages ('06 Bedard to '07 Hill)

[SevisonJN]

Actually it is looking ok see the thread MLB.com says Bedard talks still on

So the package would be Jones, Tillman, and Sherrill. I would prefer Jones, Clement, and Sherrill. Why do we keep stock piling this pitchers? Whois playing short, first, or centerfield? Clement could place first, Sherrill could close, and Jones could play CF. Let's go guys!