Schoop vs. Flaherty

[Can_of_corn]

Honestly I don't know what rWAR is.

Flaherty's defense at 3rd has actually been much worse than Schoop's, in 5 more innings, surprisingly.

As for small sample size, Flaherty has a .725 OPS in his last 230 PA's. I think that's definitely worth giving him a shot. I don't think you can deal with both Joseph and Schoop being awful offensively, and when it comes to defense Joseph has been much better than Schoop according to the metrics.

I am not saying Flaherty is going to be fantastic, but I think he deserves to be a given a shot to start, and unless he continues hitting well then you go trade for a 2B. I don't have a personal vendetta against Schoop. I just think the guy that is gonna give the team the best chance to win should start, and that's Flash right now.

You are unfamiliar with baseball reference? :slytf:

Flaherty has had his shots.

He is 27.

Let the kid play.

[Jonesy10]

You are unfamiliar with baseball reference? :slytf:

Flaherty has had his shots.

He is 27.

Let the kid play.

I know what baseball reference is but I don't look at their advanced stats. I look on fangraphs.

Flaherty is 27, but right now I think it's safe to say he's a better player, if only slightly. I would like nothing more than Schoop to break out all of a sudden but he hasn't improved at all.

[Can_of_corn]

I know what baseball reference is but I don't look at their advanced stats. I look on fangraphs.

Flaherty is 27, but right now I think it's safe to say he's a better player, if only slightly. I would like nothing more than Schoop to break out all of a sudden but he hasn't improved at all.

I suggest you look at both in the future. Generally they say around the same thing but a second viewpoint can't hurt.

[Jonesy10]

I suggest you look at both in the future. Generally they say around the same thing but a second viewpoint can't hurt.

I actually looked the other day to compare the two but I just looked at general WAR and I was mainly looking at the pitchers, as well as Jones, Pearce, and Cruz.

[Scrat1]

I don't mind keeping him, but I want to see more Flaherty. Then at some point, I will want to see more Schoop again.

Point is, they should be platooning.

I don't want our best positional prospect platooning. Give him at-bats. It just so happens we can send him down to get more playing time and delay his service clock.

I don't get the Schoop hate. He's a solid defender with an amazing arm.He hits for power and he runs reasonably well.Yes, his average leaves something to be desired , but he's learning on the job and he will get better.

I don't disagree with any of this, but that's certainly not Schoop hate. I think Schoop is going to wind up being the better player long term, which is why I want him to be sent down, both so he's getting more regular plate appearances and also so we get him for an extra year of time. Schoop is not producing more than Flaherty at this point.

There is zero evidence that going to the minors will improve Schoop's game more then staying in the majors. If Schoop is sent down and Flaherty is given, yet another, chance to start then someone who is less proficient defensively then either one of them is going to have to be called up. Then if Hardy or Machado miss time you will have to move the starting 2b out of position and play your backup who can only play second.

Obviously the O's don't see service time as an issue for Schoop. My guess is they have a better read on the matter then we do.

What does this last part even mean? Are you suggesting the Orioles think he's going to be a crappy player, so they're not worried about keeping him an extra year? Or are you suggesting the Orioles think he's a medical ticking time bomb and he won't be capable of playing by the time he's no longer under team control? If it's the former, and they think he sucks, then why is he still with the team now? And I don't think we've heard any indication it's the latter. Neither of those make sense. If you think he's going to be a good player, you want him longer. It's that simple. There's no "better read" an insider could have that we don't, considering having a good player longer is objectively better than having a good player shorter. There's no way of rationalizing out of that.

Your argument seems to be 1) currently Schoop > Flaherty (though I haven't seen much evidence of this) and 2) screw service time.

[Can_of_corn]

Or they think that signing Schoop to a long term deal, if they want to, won't be the issue it would be with folks like Wieters, Davis and Machado.

That is the one I actually think is likely.

[Scrat1]

Or they think that signing Schoop to a long term deal, if they want to, won't be the issue it would be with folks like Wieters, Davis and Machado.

That is the one I actually think is likely.

But that's still money they have to put on table a year earlier than they would have to otherwise. Extension or no extension, losing that year costs money.

There's no available evidence that Schoop is producing more than Flaherty at the moment. Considering this, why wouldn't you send Schoop down to get the service time/playing time? You aren't hurting yourself in the short term and you're helping yourself in the long term.

[Can_of_corn]

But that's still money they have to put on table a year earlier than they would have to otherwise. Extension or no extension, losing that year costs money.

Not if they extend him before he hits free agency.

Is there a difference between buying out three years of arbitration and four? Not much.

[Scrat1]

Not if they extend him before he hits free agency.

Is there a difference between buying out three years of arbitration and four? Not much.

Either a club takes its resources seriously or it doesn't. The Orioles are already at a payroll disadvantage within the division, so I hope DD runs a tighter ship than pissing away money because it's "not much" money. That low-a 19 year old prospect probably won't amount to much, so just trade him for peanuts.

[CA-ORIOLE]

So you just chose to ignore rWAR? Since, you know, it doesn't support your position and all.

Also since camp Flaherty loves to cherry pick, if you remove Schoop's defense at third how much of a bump does he get? My guess is it would be considerable.

This is laughable. The fact that Flaherty has a higher fWAR than Schoop in much less AB's and a far less favorable position distribution/allocation should be eye opening. Schoop's time at third? What about Flaherty's time at third and other positions running down his WAR? If the allocation was similar at second base, Flaherty would have him by a wide margin by fWAR and almost certainly by rWAR. That's giving Schoop the benefit of a likely inflated DRS value/differential at 2b as compared to RF this year.

[LookitsPuck]

He had a broken back last year.

That's going to impact the numbers.

I see no reason to think time at Norfolk will help.

AAA is holding the 26-35 men on the MLB roster, it isn't for developing prospects.

Well then send him down to AA.

His bat is awful up here.

[SteveO]

Schoop hit .243/.300/.624 in June.

That is respectable for a rookie 2B. Would we like more production from 2B...sure we would and so would about a dozen other teams. That fact alone makes 2B a tough upgrade in terms of doing so by trade. C would be far easier IMO.

What I find comical about this is that Schoop is outhitting Caleb Joseph across the board and playing good D yet some here are in love with CJ but want to run Schoop out of town. Little strange IMO.

I see nobody in the minors worth switching Schoop out for at this point and that includes Weeks.

[PA724_Oriole]

Neither one of their bats wood be much of a loss. I heard a stat a day or two ago about how when Schoop played the first couple weeks, when he filled in for Machado.at third, is whwn he made about 4 or 5 errors. Ever since ( about 60-70 games) when he been paying more regularly at 2B, he has only made another 3 or 4 errors.

So we can just chalk the early errors to nerves, uncomfortable position, etc. I do think its only a matter of time before we see how special he can be as a hitter.

If this was a this year thing as far as who to send down. I would say send Schoop down if it was a must between the two. However if this was a trade thing, then without a question I would trade Flaherty over Schoop and I would hope most here would feel the same.

However if we aren't in need of moving one of them down then there is no reason to make him miss out on the experience, especially while we are winning.

[Scrat1]

What I find comical about this is that Schoop is outhitting Caleb Joseph across the board and playing good D yet some here are in love with CJ but want to run Schoop out of town. Little strange IMO.

The situations are totally different. Joseph is, what, 26 years old? He's spent a ton of time in the minors. He is what he is at this point, which happens to be useful if unspectacular. There is no issue with service time, as there is with Schoop. There is no issue with further development, as there is with Schoop. They just aren't remotely comparable.

And no one is trying to run Schoop out of town. Ease up on the hyperbole. Part of the reason we want him demoted is so he'll be in town longer.

[Reboulet'sStache]

What I find comical about this is that Schoop is outhitting Caleb Joseph across the board and playing good D yet some here are in love with CJ but want to run Schoop out of town. Little strange IMO.

I see nobody in the minors worth switching Schoop out for at this point and that includes Weeks.

Joseph has a -.1 oWAR, Schoop is -.3 oWAR. Schoop, despite playing all year, only has 3 more homers than Joseph.

Schoop has a 1 dWAR, Joseph has a 1.2 dWAR.