Orioles Franchise Four

[srock]

Here's a picture gallery of every team's Final Four:

http://imgur.com/a/z8nMb

I love that Jimmie Foxx the Athletics top four as well as fellow Eastern Shoreman, Harold Baines on the White Sox. Harold is a legend in Chicago.

ARod did NOT make any list.

Bonds made the Giants top 4 but would be the in the 4 most despised for the Pirates

Buster Poser? Really...

Ditto David Wright.

KEITH HERNANDEZ

Nice to see Jeff Conine in Miami.

Vlad made two lists, Angels and Expos.

[DrungoHazewood]

Out here in the western part of the state there are a lot of Pirates fans and they absolutely despise Bonds. They think he choked in the playoffs against the Braves and then got out of dodge as soon as he could. No surprise to me at all he didn't make the Pirates list.

Right, that's the kind of stuff you get from fan polls and internet votes. By objective measures Mike Mussina's career was roughly the equivalent of Jim Palmer's, but if you put the two of them head to head on a poll here Palmer would win 95% to 5% because Mussina defected.

[MdSooner]

How does "he's not in the top 8 living" translate to "hate?" I don't hate him but I'll go so far as to say Bench was in MLB's elite 8 category as a gift to Cincinnati for hosting the game. Frank Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Griffey Jr. and several others were way more worthy.

Koufax is another curious pick, great, but in a career cut short by injury. Because of that people add to his career with "what if" he had pitched longer, what would his numbers be then? I value someone more who was able to pitch at a high level, and for longer. If you go simply by ERA+, there's Rivera, Pedro, Clemens, Maddux, Johnson. By career WAR, add Seaver, Carlton, Ryan.

I disagree. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

[DrungoHazewood]

It would be interesting to compare career WAR, or JAWS to these top fours. Just picking the Angels their top four in career fWAR is Ryan, Chuck Finley, Jim Fregosi, Brian Downing, followed by Bobby Grich, and Tim Salmon (with Trout going to pass Salmon this year in just 600 career games). So little agreement outside of Ryan.

White Sox would have Appling, Thomas, Collins, Faber, Lyons, Pierce. Thomas is the only one to make the Four list despite Appling being the clear leader in WAR.

The Red Sox have Clemens and Young ahead of Pedro. Ortiz is 8th on their career list for hitters, well behind Williams, Yaz, Boggs, Evans, Speaker, Doerr, and even Jim Rice.

The Cubs whiffed on their all-time leader and kind of founding father Cap Anson.

Paul Waner and Arky Vaughn have as good a case as Stargell for the Pirates, while Mazeroski doesn't measure up to Andrew McCutcheon or even Andy Van Slyke.

For the Cards Brock is a strange choice over the far more valuable Ozzie Smith or Albert Pujols. I'm sure Pujols gets demerits for leaving.

Ed Delehanty and Chase Utley have good arguments to replace Richie Ashburn on the Phils.

Mel Ott and Christy Mathewson were obvious omissions on the Giants, especially with the inclusion of Posey, whose career is currently about on par with Robby Thompson and George VanHalten in the 30 range for the franchise among position players.

I'd have picked Dazzy Vance over Koufax or Drysdale, but I'm sure I'm in the minority there. Interesting that the Dodgers have never had a player worth more than 63 rWAR in their 120+ year history.

Vizquel over Boudreau seems pretty obviously... well... misplaced. As is all of the chosen over Nap Lajoie.

I'd have thrown out Reggie and Eck from the A's and replaced them with any of Collins, Simmons, Plank or Grove.

[TINSTAAPP]

Right, that's the kind of stuff you get from fan polls and internet votes. By objective measures Mike Mussina's career was roughly the equivalent of Jim Palmer's, but if you put the two of them head to head on a poll here Palmer would win 95% to 5% because Mussina defected.

FWIW, Jim Palmer has stated on numerous occasions that he thought Mike Mussina was just as good if not better than he was.

[Crabcakes]

my choice was Eddie over FRobby just because Eddie's work in B'more was HOF worthy. Nothing he did elsewhere was as good. Robby would've made the HOF regardless of his work in B'more & he played fewer seasons here (6 vs 12)

Eddie is still the career MLB leader in Sac Flys .... 128...Cal's #2 w/ 127! (of course, MLB has only been tracking SF's since '54)

[Frobby]

Its not because Eddie was run out of town (which was none-sense, I love Eddie Murray) its because starting pitching, short stop, and third base are premium positions compared to first base.

I don't agree. It's because those guys were here much longer and never played anywhere else. If Eddie had played his whole career in Baltimore it would be very hard to keep him out of the Franchise Four.

In any event, we are very lucky to have such an illustrious group to choose from, all of whom are still with us.

[25 Nuggets]

It would be interesting to compare career WAR, or JAWS to these top fours. Just picking the Angels their top four in career fWAR is Ryan, Chuck Finley, Jim Fregosi, Brian Downing, followed by Bobby Grich, and Tim Salmon (with Trout going to pass Salmon this year in just 600 career games). So little agreement outside of Ryan.

But... Vladdy! *shrug* already had that conversation.

White Sox would have Appling, Thomas, Collins, Faber, Lyons, Pierce. Thomas is the only one to make the Four list despite Appling being the clear leader in WAR.

Perhaps the worst job out of any team, missing out on two big-time Hall of Famers.

The Red Sox have Clemens and Young ahead of Pedro. Ortiz is 8th on their career list for hitters, well behind Williams, Yaz, Boggs, Evans, Speaker, Doerr, and even Jim Rice.

The love-fest over Big Baby makes my skin crawl. Not only is he overrated, he's as much a fraud as other players with no "revealed" failed drug test. I'd rather they pick Dustin Pedroia. I hate hate hate hate that selection.

The Cubs whiffed on their all-time leader and kind of founding father Cap Anson.

I didn't expect any 19th century players to make it. Besides, he's supposedly a Klan member.

Paul Waner and Arky Vaughn have as good a case as Stargell for the Pirates, while Mazeroski doesn't measure up to Andrew McCutcheon or even Andy Van Slyke.

One plate appearance.

For the Cards Brock is a strange choice over the far more valuable Ozzie Smith or Albert Pujols. I'm sure Pujols gets demerits for leaving.

Probably does regarding Pujols. True however about Smith, he's another favorite in Saint Louis, or so I thought. Lou Brock, another post season hero I guess, but he's one of the least valuable players in the Hall of Fame, and certainly the worst member of the 3000 hits club.

Ed Delehanty and Chase Utley have good arguments to replace Richie Ashburn on the Phils.

Not bothered too much with that -- again, no expectations for 19th century players. Utley has fallen off a cliff.

Mel Ott and Christy Mathewson were obvious omissions on the Giants, especially with the inclusion of Posey, whose career is currently about on par with Robby Thompson and George VanHalten in the 30 range for the franchise among position players.

...and that's the problem with including current players on the ballot. We don't know how Posey's career will finish. But, it's kind of necessary for what MLB was trying to do.

I'd have picked Dazzy Vance over Koufax or Drysdale, but I'm sure I'm in the minority there. Interesting that the Dodgers have never had a player worth more than 63 rWAR in their 120+ year history.

That is quite interesting. Nice shout out to Vance, but Koufax/Drysdale, despite being overrated, do have a lot of substance behind their style.

Vizquel over Boudreau seems pretty obviously... well... misplaced. As is all of the chosen over Nap Lajoie.

I mean, the team used to be called the Cleveland Naps. They can't elect the man their own team was named after?

I'd have thrown out Reggie and Eck from the A's and replaced them with any of Collins, Simmons, Plank or Grove.

The Philadelphia Athletics had some of the better teams in baseball history. Sad that they're largely forgotten.

[DJHJR86]

I don't agree. It's because those guys were here much longer and never played anywhere else. If Eddie had played his whole career in Baltimore it would be very hard to keep him out of the Franchise Four.

Eddie was here longer than Frank. He also had more hits, HR's, and RBI's in an Orioles uniform. Without question I would have voted for Eddie over Frank.

[mdbdotcom]

Eddie was here longer than Frank. He also had more hits, HR's, and RBI's in an Orioles uniform. Without question I would have voted for Eddie over Frank.

I suspect that Palmer and Brooks both would have voted for Frank over themselves. They saw the difference he meant to the team and have spoken of it frequently.

[Frobby]

I suspect that Palmer and Brooks both would have voted for Frank over themselves. They saw the difference he meant to the team and have spoken of it frequently.

I expect teammates to say things like that. And Frank was very important to the team, no doubt. But even though Frank is my favorite player ever, I think his importance to the 1966-71 Orioles can be a bit overrated at times. The O's won 97 and 94 games in the two years before Frank arrived, so it's not like they were some mediocre team. And that was before Palmer and McNally and several position players matured. Considering their margin of victory in 1969-71, I suspect they might have won those pennants without Frank. They wouldn't have won without him in '66, but I'm not sure they would have won that year without Brooks, either.

[Crabcakes]

It would be interesting to compare career WAR, or JAWS to these top fours.

While I'm not a fan of WAR (it a bunch hypotheticals wrapped around numbers, IMO) it does have it's purposes...I suppose...& your post got me to thinking of some other stats & how players ranked....soooooo.....I went & checked Career OPS+ (which we all know = 100*(OBP/lgOBP + SLG/lgSLG-1), adjusted to ballparks [another hypothetical], according to the Sabre nerds)...although I'm not sure if you -1 on lg/SLG, or -1 on SLG/lgSLG, or -1 on whole equation in the parenthesis

Top Players w/ highest career OPS+ (in parenthesis)

1 Babe Ruth (206) , 2 Ted Williams (190) , 3 Barry Bonds (182), 4 Lou Gehrig (179), 5 Rogers Hornsby (175), 6 Mickey Mantle (172), 7 Dan Brouthers [played for the Orioles in 1894] & Shoeless Joe Jackson (170), 9 Ty Cobb (168), 10 Pete Browning, Jimmie Foxx, Mark McGwire (163)

Ranking of players from the Orioles in the Top 1000 MLB Career OPS+ (OPS+ number in front)

154 Frank Robinson, tied w/ Manny Ramirez

134 Boog Powell...other notables w/ 134 Al Kaline, Paul Waner, Travis Hafner, John Kruk

137 Rafeal Palmero, Ken Singleton... other notables w/ 137, Jackie Robinson, Rocky Colavito, Tony Gwynn, Hanley Ramirez

162 Mike Epstein..remember him?...other notables, Dave Winfield, Carl Yastrzemski, Roberto Clemente, Josh Hamilton, Evan Longoria, Minnie Minoso

129 Eddie Murray...others...Mark Teixeira, Fred Lynn, Mickey Cochrane, Zack Wheat

127 Willie Keeler, others...Rickey Henderson, Don Mattingly, Dwight Evans, Bill Dickey (in 5 years in B'more Keeler had 2824 AB's & only 36 K's)

125 Bobby Gritch, others...Robinson Cano, Yogi Berra, Ron Santo, George Sisler, Victor Martinez

124 Bobby Bonilla, others....Bobby Murcer, Kirby Puckett, Enos Slaughter, Rusty Staub, Joe Adcock (in only less than a year & 1/2 Bonilla hit .300, w/ 38 HR's & 162 RBI's)

123 Glenn Davis ....yes THAT Glenn Davis...others Kirk Gibson, Roy Campanella, Mike Napoli, Ted Kluszewski (Davis' OPS+ in B'more was a whooping 97)

122 Mickey Tettleton...others, Chase Utley, Tony Perez, Paul Molitor, Ernie Banks

121 Nelson Cruz ...others, Harold Baines, Mike Hargrove, Heinie Manush, Pablo Sandoval, Dale Murphy, Jorge Posada

119 Chris Hoiles ...others, Sal Bando, Tony Conigliaro, Andre Dawson, Carlos Gonzales, Darrell Evans, Cecil Fielder

118 Don Baylor ...others, Pete Rose, Ken Griffey, Gary Matthews, Ted Simmons, Chicken Wolf (with a name like that, I had to throw him on the list)

117 Chris Davis, Gary Roenicke, Luke Scott...others, Carlton Fisk, Steve Garvey, Carlos Pena

116 Roberto Alomar, Lee May ....Dusty Baker, Ken Caminiti, Thurman Munson, Mickey Vernon, Ben Zobrist

115 Curt Blefary, Doug DeCinces, Don Buford ...others...Adrian Beltre, Derek Jeter, Curtis Granderson, Dave Kingman, Robin Yount

114 Aubrey Huff ....others... Gorman Thomas, Nick Swisher, Robin Ventura, Adam Lind, Darren Daulton

112 Nick Markakis, Cal Ripkin,...others...Jason Heyward, Tony Clark, Craig Biggio, Bill Freehan, Alfonso Soriano, Baby Doll Jacobson, Tino Martinez

111 Adam Jones, ...others ...Richie Ashburn, Julio Franco, Chase Headley, Wes Parker

110 Davey Johnson, ...others... Lee Mazilli, Graig Nettles, Alan Trammell, Kevin Millar

109 Brady Anderson, ...others....Lou Piniella, Ian Kinsler, Chris Chambliss, Lou Brock, Ichiro Suzuki

108 John Lowenstein, Miguel Tejada, ...others...Dan Uggla, Jason Kubel, Elston Howard

105 Melvin Mora, ...others, Angel Pagan, Matty Alou, Ruben Sierra, Joe Pepitone

104 Al Bumbry, Brooks Robinson, Todd Zeile (29 games w/ the O's - 1996) ...others, Johnny Damon, Steve Finley, Russell Martin, Jhonny Peralta, Sherm Lollar, Jim Lefebre, Colby Rasmus

103 Gus Triandos...others, Shane Victorino, Rickie Weeks, Snuffy Stirweiss

....apologies if I missed anyone.....remember, this is only for the top 1000

[Crabcakes]

...apologies for the multi-postings....for some reason the 'edit post' isn't working for me.....& it won't allow me to delete posts either

[PeteU]

my choice was Eddie over FRobby just because Eddie's work in B'more was HOF worthy. Nothing he did elsewhere was as good. Robby would've made the HOF regardless of his work in B'more & he played fewer seasons here (6 vs 12)

Eddie is still the career MLB leader in Sac Flys .... 128...Cal's #2 w/ 127! (of course, MLB has only been tracking SF's since '54)

Well, baseball didn't really begin until 1954 anyways.

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Well, for all intents and purposes it didn't, at least.

[PeteU]

The Nats should embrace the Expos. You can't tell me a Bryce Harper throwback Expos jersey wouldn't sell.

No. The legacy of a franchise's prior incarnation in another city ought to* remain in that city with the fans who cheered for those players, IMHO. Seeing Johnny Unitas somehow forcibly associated with the Indianapolis NFL franchise has taught me that much.

Besides, does anyone here actually care that much about the St. Louis Browns?

*I say "ought to" but that doesn't necessarily mean it will. Far from it.