Is there any legitimate reason for Mike Mussina to go into the HOF as a Yankee instead of an Oriole?

[Can_of_corn]

We don't give pitchers five year deals.

Angelos made it clear his offer wasn't going to improve, especially not by another $9.5M.

All of which is true.

None of which I have ever disputed.

Once again I do not blame him for signing with the Yankees.

I don't like that he isn't a man of his word.

[DrungoHazewood]

Actually I said I didn't like using his winning percentage as part of his argument.

You need to put the winning percentage in context, which those citing it never seem to get around doing.

What is that context? And how does the context-adjusted winning percentage compare to other HOF starters? I don't know, but it's probably okay. There are guys like Red Ruffing who won the same number of games as Mussina, lost a lot more, and outside of his time on the Yanks was 50 games under .500. And he's in the Hall.

[TonySoprano]

All of which is true.

None of which I have ever disputed.

Once again I do not blame him for signing with the Yankees.

I don't like that he isn't a man of his word.

It's not as if he didn't give Angelos a last chance to bid, it just wasn't after the Yankees offer.

[DrungoHazewood]

All of which is true.

None of which I have ever disputed.

Once again I do not blame him for signing with the Yankees.

I don't like that he isn't a man of his word.

There was a back-and-forth, and according to what source you believe he may or may not have met the intent of his statement about letting the O's turn down a final offer after they'd already made it pretty darned clear they wouldn't. To me that's a breach of integrity on par with claiming Steve Pearce has a grade 2 oblique strain so they don't lose a guy to waivers.

[Can_of_corn]

What is that context? And how does the context-adjusted winning percentage compare to other HOF starters? I don't know, but it's probably okay. There are guys like Red Ruffing who won the same number of games as Mussina, lost a lot more, and outside of his time on the Yanks was 50 games under .500. And he's in the Hall.

If we went by the standard of "He's better then the worst guy in the hall" it would be a big hall.

BTW not saying I don't think Mussina has the numbers.

[Can_of_corn]

It's not as if he didn't give Angelos a last chance to bid, it just wasn't after the Yankees offer.

Which is what he said he would do...

Sorry Tony, this is very black and white for me. Don't give your word unless you mean it. Damon did something similar when he was with the Red Sox.

[DrungoHazewood]

Which is what he said he would do...

Sorry Tony, this is very black and white for me. Don't give your word unless you mean it. Damon did something similar when he was with the Red Sox.

I don't believe in going back on my word, either. But if I held a grudge against everyone who didn't live up to the exact phrasing of everything they ever said they'd do I wouldn't have too many folks in the world to talk to.

[Can_of_corn]

I don't believe in going back on my word, either. But if I held a grudge against everyone who didn't live up to the exact phrasing of everything they ever said they'd do I wouldn't have too many folks in the world to talk to.

It's OK, I don't care if they play for the yankees or use PEDS so it evens out.

[TonySoprano]

Which is what he said he would do...

Sorry Tony, this is very black and white for me. Don't give your word unless you mean it. Damon did something similar when he was with the Red Sox.

We'll agree to disagree.

Friday Nov. 24, 2000 Angelos, who considered himself smarter than his GMs, refuses to increase his offer.

Monday Nov. 27, 2000 Mussina takes his physical and NYY makes an offer.

Tuesday Nov. 28, 2000 Mussina talks it over with his family.

Wednesday Nov. 29, 2000 Mussina formally takes the deal. Tellem resolves "some contract language and minor issues."

There were 4 teams involved, not just us and the Yankees. Angelos' offer was either 3rd or last of the four depending upon what Boston offered.

While it seemed probable that the Yankees would still sign Mussina to a six-year, $87 million contract, both the Mets and the Boston Red Sox remained very involved, having made similar proposals to Mussina.

Although most of the baseball world has been fitting Mussina for pinstripes, Mets General Manager Steve Phillips said that he was hopeful about Mussina. One person familiar with the Mets' approach said they had also made an $87 million proposal to Mussina. ''We haven't been told we're out of it, despite the speculation that's out there,'' Phillips said.

source - NY Times, Nov. 29, 2000

After having won the World Series with a payroll of $112 million, the Yankees moved swiftly to land Mussina, one of the two marquee free-agent pitchers with Mike Hampton. Manager Joe Torre met face to face with Mussina, Derek Jeter, Paul O'Neill and Pettitte telephoned him and the Yankees gave a pitcher who will be 32 next week a hefty six-year deal. Mussina, who was 11-15 with a 3.79 earned run average last season, was 147-81 in his 10 seasons with the Orioles.

It seemed possible that Mussina and the Yankees had been discussing a no-trade clause, but one person familiar with the negotiations said that the Yankees were not averse to the clause and would not allow it to ruin a deal.

The Mets, the Red Sox and, to a lesser extent, the Orioles, had also been pursuing Mussina, but the Yankees emerged as the favorites and stayed that way. Mussina had previously said that he would give the Orioles a chance to match any final offer, but a high-ranking team official said that the club had not spoken to Tellem for four days.

source - NY Times, Nov. 30, 2000

[Moose Milligan]

And Palmer's teams weren't any good?

One thing I've always wondered about Palmer (and while we're here, this is something you could probably help me out on) is exactly how much he benefitted from the defenses that he played with. No doubt Palmer was a great pitcher but having guys like Robinson, Blair, Belanger behind him for awhile must have helped tremendously. I guess FIP would be the correct metric to use here, which would make Palmer's ERA rise from 2.86 to 3.50.

If there's a better way to measure it or explain it, I'd like to know about it. I'm not trying to take anything away from Palmer and I think he'd be the first to admit that he played with great defenders that made his job easier. Granted, he'd also tell you that had a hand in their success by positioning them from the mound but that's a different story altogether.

One thing that always surprised me about Palmer is that he didn't have really high strikeout totals, he never struck out 200 batters in a season (199 once) despite leading the league in batters faced twice which means he had more opportunities than anyone to do so in '70 and '76. He finished 4th in the league in strikeouts three times. Maybe for the time period these were high strikeout totals but in an era after Gibson and Koufax and playing next to Nolan Ryan, Palmer really doesn't come close to approaching the best strikeout pitchers of the day.

Dave Stieb was a very good, underrated pitcher. But by saying he's basically the same as Mussina you're not making a serious argument. Mike Mussina's career passed Stieb's about two years after he left the Orioles. Then he was a good pitcher for another 5-6 years. C'mon Moose. It's not even close. JAWS is just one measure, but by JAWS Stieb is the 66th-best starter of all time, Mussina 28th.

You're basically making the argument that Kevin Appier is exactly the same pitcher as Nolan Ryan and if Ryan goes in Appier should, too.

Dave Stieb also rocked quite a mullet which, in my mind, counts for a lot.

Jokes aside, no, of course I'm not saying that Stieb was the same pitcher that Mussina was but Frobby was clinging to ERA+ which I found sort of silly. I don't think anyone's Hall of Fame plaque talks about or will ever talk about someone's ERA+.

But Dave Stieb also threw more no hitters than Mussina did and made more All Star games than Mussina did. If you look at their average seasons from Stieb's age 22 (his 2nd season but first full year) through age 32 and Mussina's age 23 (the 18-5 season and 1st full breakout year)to 32 there are some interesting similarities:

Stieb's ERA was 3.29, Mussina's was 3.52. I know, I know, Mussina played in a hitter's era, Stieb not so much.

Stieb's FIP was 3.74, Mussina's was 3.56.

Stieb's ERA+ was 127+, Mussina's was 130+

Mussina really pastes Stieb when it comes to k/BB ratio, and of course Stieb's W/L record average those years was 14-10 while Mussina was 16-9. But in their primes, Stieb only averaged one more loss and two less wins per year.

Now as you mentioned and I admitted, I can't really argue that Stieb had a better career or was a better pitcher but a lot of that seems to stem from the fact that Stieb was pretty much done at age 32 while Mussina was able to tack on 123 more wins from age 32 until retirement. Which is what Frobby's argument was here all along, he won a lot of games. And won a lot more than he lost which counts for a lot and is pretty much the only reason he warrants any consideration for the Hall of Fame.

The interesting thing here that no one has brought up yet is who Mussina comps to. #1 is Andy Pettite, and I don't see anyone here actively campaigning for Andy Pettite's Hall of Fame credentials. That's probably due in part to the fact that Pettite was a Yankee but there are also a lot of smart fans here who could put that aside and intelligently debate for or against him.

#2 is Marichal, which is also interesting to me. #3 is David Wells.

Then it goes:

#4 Schilling

#5 Palmer

#6 Hubbell

#7 Kevin Brown

#8 Tim Hudson

#9 Jack Morris

#10 Sabathia

So three Hall of Famers, one guy that a lot of people will campaign for (Schilling) and a bunch of guys that no one would campaign for.

Stieb doesn't comp to any HoFers, for the record.

Glavine (that guy who hung around for a few crappy seasons to get to 300 wins) comps favorably to Early Wynn and Tom Seaver. These comp lists get really weird though because Glavine's also include Tommy John, Jamie Moyer and Randy Johnson. At this point it's almost 4 am and I have no idea what I'm trying to say.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, like Dave Stieb, there's no real reason to come across Mike Mussina's career unless you're actively looking for it. He's not extremely high up on the all time wins leaders list and he's surrounded by guys like Jamie Moyer, Burleigh Grimes and Red Ruffing (two hall of famers I'm assuming you're not completely impressed with, Drungo). He never lead the league in anything a bunch of times. As pointed out to death he never won any significant hardware. He never won a World Series. And even if Rivera doesn't give up that duck fart hit to Luis Gonzalez, it's not like Mussina had a heroic 2001 Series. There are no dominant big stage pitching highlight reel moments that force us to think about Mussina outside of what he did in the 97 playoffs which no one is talking about unless you're an Orioles fan.

Like I said, there's no reason to come across his career unless you're actively seeking it. You can't talk about baseball in the 90's and 2000's without mentioning guys like Johnson, Pedro, Maddux, maybe even Glavine and Smoltz. You can easily have a general conversation about the game of baseball in the 90's and 2000's and not even think about Mussina while mentioning the rest quite easily and effortlessly.

[25 Nuggets]

He never won a World Series. And even if Rivera doesn't give up that duck fart hit to Luis Gonzalez, it's not like Mussina had a heroic 2001 Series. There are no dominant big stage pitching highlight reel moments that force us to think about Mussina outside of what he did in the 97 playoffs which no one is talking about unless you're an Orioles fan.

Interestingly enough, Mussina DOES have a big stage performance for the Yankees, but not as a starter, rather a reliever:

[video=youtube;4_7TFSicoD8]

[25 Nuggets]

The interesting thing here that no one has brought up yet is who Mussina comps to. #1 is Andy Pettite, and I don't see anyone here actively campaigning for Andy Pettite's Hall of Fame credentials. That's probably due in part to the fact that Pettite was a Yankee but there are also a lot of smart fans here who could put that aside and intelligently debate for or against him.

#2 is Marichal, which is also interesting to me. #3 is David Wells.

Then it goes:

#4 Schilling

#5 Palmer

#6 Hubbell

#7 Kevin Brown

#8 Tim Hudson

#9 Jack Morris

#10 Sabathia

So three Hall of Famers, one guy that a lot of people will campaign for (Schilling) and a bunch of guys that no one would campaign for.

I see the list differently.

- Three HOFers (Marichal, Palmer, Hubbell), who BTW are all no-brainers for the Hall.

- Two highly debated candidates (Schilling, Morris), one of which barely missed making it on his final try.

- One upcoming pitcher (Pettitte) who will probably stay on the ballot, though I am unsure of his PED use penalty.

- One pitcher (Brown) who was one-and-done probably due to the Mitchell Report; otherwise he should have gotten more of a chance.

- Two pitchers (Hudson, Sabathia) who have two of the best HOF cases among all current starting pitchers.

- David Wells.

That's a very consistent list of HOF and near-HOF players. Better than a lot of other comp lists.

Difference of viewpoint I guess; it's a'ight. :thumbsup1:

[DrungoHazewood]

One thing I've always wondered about Palmer (and while we're here, this is something you could probably help me out on) is exactly how much he benefitted from the defenses that he played with. No doubt Palmer was a great pitcher but having guys like Robinson, Blair, Belanger behind him for awhile must have helped tremendously. I guess FIP would be the correct metric to use here, which would make Palmer's ERA rise from 2.86 to 3.50.

If there's a better way to measure it or explain it, I'd like to know about it. I'm not trying to take anything away from Palmer and I think he'd be the first to admit that he played with great defenders that made his job easier. Granted, he'd also tell you that had a hand in their success by positioning them from the mound but that's a different story altogether.

One thing that always surprised me about Palmer is that he didn't have really high strikeout totals, he never struck out 200 batters in a season (199 once) despite leading the league in batters faced twice which means he had more opportunities than anyone to do so in '70 and '76. He finished 4th in the league in strikeouts three times. Maybe for the time period these were high strikeout totals but in an era after Gibson and Koufax and playing next to Nolan Ryan, Palmer really doesn't come close to approaching the best strikeout pitchers of the day.

Dave Stieb also rocked quite a mullet which, in my mind, counts for a lot.

Jokes aside, no, of course I'm not saying that Stieb was the same pitcher that Mussina was but Frobby was clinging to ERA+ which I found sort of silly. I don't think anyone's Hall of Fame plaque talks about or will ever talk about someone's ERA+.

But Dave Stieb also threw more no hitters than Mussina did and made more All Star games than Mussina did. If you look at their average seasons from Stieb's age 22 (his 2nd season but first full year) through age 32 and Mussina's age 23 (the 18-5 season and 1st full breakout year)to 32 there are some interesting similarities:

Stieb's ERA was 3.29, Mussina's was 3.52. I know, I know, Mussina played in a hitter's era, Stieb not so much.

Stieb's FIP was 3.74, Mussina's was 3.56.

Stieb's ERA+ was 127+, Mussina's was 130+

Mussina really pastes Stieb when it comes to k/BB ratio, and of course Stieb's W/L record average those years was 14-10 while Mussina was 16-9. But in their primes, Stieb only averaged one more loss and two less wins per year.

Now as you mentioned and I admitted, I can't really argue that Stieb had a better career or was a better pitcher but a lot of that seems to stem from the fact that Stieb was pretty much done at age 32 while Mussina was able to tack on 123 more wins from age 32 until retirement. Which is what Frobby's argument was here all along, he won a lot of games. And won a lot more than he lost which counts for a lot and is pretty much the only reason he warrants any consideration for the Hall of Fame.

The interesting thing here that no one has brought up yet is who Mussina comps to. #1 is Andy Pettite, and I don't see anyone here actively campaigning for Andy Pettite's Hall of Fame credentials. That's probably due in part to the fact that Pettite was a Yankee but there are also a lot of smart fans here who could put that aside and intelligently debate for or against him.

#2 is Marichal, which is also interesting to me. #3 is David Wells.

Then it goes:

#4 Schilling

#5 Palmer

#6 Hubbell

#7 Kevin Brown

#8 Tim Hudson

#9 Jack Morris

#10 Sabathia

So three Hall of Famers, one guy that a lot of people will campaign for (Schilling) and a bunch of guys that no one would campaign for.

Stieb doesn't comp to any HoFers, for the record.

Glavine (that guy who hung around for a few crappy seasons to get to 300 wins) comps favorably to Early Wynn and Tom Seaver. These comp lists get really weird though because Glavine's also include Tommy John, Jamie Moyer and Randy Johnson. At this point it's almost 4 am and I have no idea what I'm trying to say.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, like Dave Stieb, there's no real reason to come across Mike Mussina's career unless you're actively looking for it. He's not extremely high up on the all time wins leaders list and he's surrounded by guys like Jamie Moyer, Burleigh Grimes and Red Ruffing (two hall of famers I'm assuming you're not completely impressed with, Drungo). He never lead the league in anything a bunch of times. As pointed out to death he never won any significant hardware. He never won a World Series. And even if Rivera doesn't give up that duck fart hit to Luis Gonzalez, it's not like Mussina had a heroic 2001 Series. There are no dominant big stage pitching highlight reel moments that force us to think about Mussina outside of what he did in the 97 playoffs which no one is talking about unless you're an Orioles fan.

Like I said, there's no reason to come across his career unless you're actively seeking it. You can't talk about baseball in the 90's and 2000's without mentioning guys like Johnson, Pedro, Maddux, maybe even Glavine and Smoltz. You can easily have a general conversation about the game of baseball in the 90's and 2000's and not even think about Mussina while mentioning the rest quite easily and effortlessly.

Look, I'm not going to try to pick apart your post point-by-point. I'll just leave it at this: There are 215 MLBers in the Hall and about 100 other random executives and Negro Leaguers and others. Only a very small percentage of those guys are some combination of multi-year MVPs, Cy Young winners, all-time HR or strikeout kings, or postseason heroes. Heck, prior to 1900 there was no such thing as a World Series, or any official awards before 1910ish, so there's, what... 50? current HOFers who couldn't have done any of the things you give Mussina demerits for.

Your arguments against Mussina, applied consistenly to the whole body of MLB players, would result in maybe 90% of current HOFers being kicked out. Your standard isn't the Hall of Fame's standard. It's not remotely close.

[Old#5fan]

Look, I'm not going to try to pick apart your post point-by-point. I'll just leave it at this: There are 215 MLBers in the Hall and about 100 other random executives and Negro Leaguers and others. Only a very small percentage of those guys are some combination of multi-year MVPs, Cy Young winners, all-time HR or strikeout kings, or postseason heroes. Heck, prior to 1900 there was no such thing as a World Series, or any official awards before 1910ish, so there's, what... 50? current HOFers who couldn't have done any of the things you give Mussina demerits for.

Your arguments against Mussina, applied consistenly to the whole body of MLB players, would result in maybe 90% of current HOFers being kicked out. Your standard isn't the Hall of Fame's standard. It's not remotely close.

Look it's really a rather simple answer to the op question as I see it. If he somehow garners enough votes to get in someday way far down the road after much more worthy no brainer type candidates get in, he will have to go in as a Yankee and deservedly so! I state this with supreme confidence as I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if his career had ended his last season as an Oriole there is no way he would make it! He never made it to a WS as an Oriole and never won 20 games either. He did both as a Yankee which along with the additional games he won would likely be the only reason he would make it in the first place! End of story here people!

[Frobby]

Which is what he said he would do...

Sorry Tony, this is very black and white for me. Don't give your word unless you mean it. Damon did something similar when he was with the Red Sox.

Since this seems to be your big point, would you mind finding a source quoting what Mussina said?