Is there any legitimate reason for Mike Mussina to go into the HOF as a Yankee instead of an Oriole?

[Can_of_corn]

Since this seems to be your big point, would you mind finding a source quoting what Mussina said?

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/30/sports/baseball-mussina-and-the-yankees-reach-agreement-on-pact.html

Mussina had previously said that he would give the Orioles a chance to match any final offer

[Can_of_corn]

Since this seems to be your big point, would you mind finding a source quoting what Mussina said?

I really don't see how me getting upset about this is so much more interesting then the folks who are furious he signed with the Yankees.

[TonySoprano]

I really don't see how me getting upset about this is so much more interesting then the folks who are furious he signed with the Yankees.

Had he signed with the Mets or maybe even with the Red Sox, I'd bet the deep vitriol wouldn't be there. He could have been a difference maker with either of those two. It was the Mets that lost the series to the Yankees in 2000.

Moose left a sinking ship for a team that had just won the World Series. Name me a baseball player who would pass up that kind of opportunity. It would be a very short list.

[Can_of_corn]

Had he signed with the Mets or maybe even with the Red Sox, I'd bet the deep vitriol wouldn't be there. He could have been a difference maker with either of those two. It was the Mets that lost the series to the Yankees in 2000.

Moose left a sinking ship for a team that had just won the World Series. Name me a baseball player who would pass up that kind of opportunity. It would be a very short list.

Still agreeing with you.

[TonySoprano]

Still agreeing with you.

Our only disagreement is a perfunctory phone call to Angelos, 3-4 days after the last conversation, would not have been a productive use of time. I doubt Moose would have been persuaded to go in a different direction.

[Can_of_corn]

Our only disagreement is a perfunctory phone call to Angelos, 3-4 days after the last conversation, would not have been a productive use of time. I doubt Moose would have been persuaded to go in a different direction.

Pretty much yea.

[Old#5fan]

I do agree with the assertion had he signed with the Mets or at that time, even Boston there would be far less or possibly eve no vitriol directed at him by Os fans. But he didn't and instead went to what was at the time the most despicable team to head to and they weren't known as the Evil Empire for nothing. The Jeffrey Mauer incident still was firmly planted in every Os fan's craw and for him to go there just ended any former respect I had for the guy. I wouldn't even care if said he only considers himself a true YANKEE because Imo that is a team much more befitting of the greatest Benedict Arnold in Orioles history bar none!

[TonySoprano]

I do agree with the assertion had he signed with the Mets or at that time, even Boston there would be far less or possibly eve no vitriol directed at him by Os fans. But he didn't and instead went to what was at the time the most despicable team to head to and they weren't known as the Evil Empire for nothing. The Jeffrey Mauer incident still was firmly planted in every Os fan's craw and for him to go there just ended any former respect I had for the guy. I wouldn't even care if said he only considers himself a true YANKEE because Imo that is a team much more befitting of the greatest Benedict Arnold in Orioles history bar none!

Imagine if Reggie had stayed instead of going to NY. He was Mr. October with them. Moose was 0'fer in the WS.

[Frobby]

I do agree with the assertion had he signed with the Mets or at that time, even Boston there would be far less or possibly eve no vitriol directed at him by Os fans. But he didn't and instead went to what was at the time the most despicable team to head to and they weren't known as the Evil Empire for nothing. The Jeffrey Mauer incident still was firmly planted in every Os fan's craw and for him to go there just ended any former respect I had for the guy. I wouldn't even care if said he only considers himself a true YANKEE because Imo that is a team much more befitting of the greatest Benedict Arnold in Orioles history bar none!

To me, I only cared that he didn't sign with us. The Yankees offered him the best deal, so I don't see why he had some moral obligation to pick some other team besides the Yankees.

[Old#5fan]

Imagine if Reggie had stayed instead of going to NY. He was Mr. October with them. Moose was 0'fer in the WS.

Yeah I hated Reggie after he ditched the Orioles also after being a one year rental. I used to absolutely LOVE being at the ballpark and watching McGregor striking him out. Once saw him fan him three times in swinging strikes with him swinging so hard on the last k he fell down !!

[Frobby]

I really don't see how me getting upset about this is so much more interesting then the folks who are furious he signed with the Yankees.

Your opinions always interest me.

[Can_of_corn]

Your opinions always interest me.

Aww, I ain't nuthin special.

[Moose Milligan]

I see the list differently.

- Three HOFers (Marichal, Palmer, Hubbell), who BTW are all no-brainers for the Hall.

- Two highly debated candidates (Schilling, Morris), one of which barely missed making it on his final try.

- One upcoming pitcher (Pettitte) who will probably stay on the ballot, though I am unsure of his PED use penalty.

- One pitcher (Brown) who was one-and-done probably due to the Mitchell Report; otherwise he should have gotten more of a chance.

- Two pitchers (Hudson, Sabathia) who have two of the best HOF cases among all current starting pitchers.

- David Wells.

That's a very consistent list of HOF and near-HOF players. Better than a lot of other comp lists.

Difference of viewpoint I guess; it's a'ight. :thumbsup1:

Yeah, maybe I was too harsh. You're right about Schilling, I think he's got a good shot, better than Morris. I don't think Pettite has a chance, PED's or not. Very,very good career. I put Hudson in with Pettite and Morris, he had a damn good career but he falls just short. Sabathia will have an interesting shot but these last few years might hurt his case.

Look, I'm not going to try to pick apart your post point-by-point. I'll just leave it at this: There are 215 MLBers in the Hall and about 100 other random executives and Negro Leaguers and others. Only a very small percentage of those guys are some combination of multi-year MVPs, Cy Young winners, all-time HR or strikeout kings, or postseason heroes. Heck, prior to 1900 there was no such thing as a World Series, or any official awards before 1910ish, so there's, what... 50? current HOFers who couldn't have done any of the things you give Mussina demerits for.

Your arguments against Mussina, applied consistenly to the whole body of MLB players, would result in maybe 90% of current HOFers being kicked out. Your standard isn't the Hall of Fame's standard. It's not remotely close.

Yeah, so? I'm not arguing for any HOFers being kicked out. Your argument assumes that the standard for the Hall of Fame has been consistent over the years which is impossible due to the fact that the voters keep changing and the emergence of the Veterans Committee. It's not like your view of the HOF standards are in lockstep with what the current standards, either. I know you'd love to have Alan Trammell and Tim Raines in and have mocked others that are currently in that probably don't belong over those two and others (for the record, I agree that Raines should be in and if they're going to include Rizzuto they should probably have Trammell).

It's not like you telling me that my standards (based off this one case btw) is a convincing argument that would make me alter my perception that Mussina isn't one of the defining pitchers of his generation.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah, so? I'm not arguing for any HOFers being kicked out. Your argument assumes that the standard for the Hall of Fame has been consistent over the years which is impossible due to the fact that the voters keep changing and the emergence of the Veterans Committee. It's not like your view of the HOF standards are in lockstep with what the current standards, either. I know you'd love to have Alan Trammell and Tim Raines in and have mocked others that are currently in that probably don't belong over those two and others (for the record, I agree that Raines should be in and if they're going to include Rizzuto they should probably have Trammell).

It's not like you telling me that my standards (based off this one case btw) is a convincing argument that would make me alter my perception that Mussina isn't one of the defining pitchers of his generation.

The "So?" is the fact that there are 65 or so starters in the Hall and Mussina has a real good argument for being in the top 30 all time and you don't think he's a HOFer.

[MurphDogg]

It's not like you telling me that my standards (based off this one case btw) is a convincing argument that would make me alter my perception that Mussina isn't one of the defining pitchers of his generation.

Right, but that also isn't the standard for Hall of Fame inception.