SI: Cuba

[weams]

https://thecauldron.si.com/on-the-hopefully-promising-future-of-cuban-baseball-fd9936621d58#.z1qknx6fz

Despite the outward, unwavering love, concern remains that the Cuban League will soon go the way of many of its cross-Caribbean counterparts. Still, slivers of silver linings remain. Player loans to Japan and Canada, for instance, show that the government has grown more willing to grant increased freedom of movement to its players. Given that Japan and Korea already enjoy a lucrative posting system with MLB, which allows top national talent to stay for a certain time before being released in exchange for a fee, it stands to reason Cuba would endeavor for a similar model. The resulting revenue could then be reinvested into the island's decaying sports infrastructure.

Then there's the aforementioned goodwill tour, spearheaded on the Cuban side by Antonio Castro (son of You Know Who), whose stewardship has included advocating for baseball's return to the Olympics. Castro was instrumental in negotiating MLB Spring Training games on the island, and even broached the prospect of a unified Cuban team for the 2017 World Baseball Classic. That's a move that, if sincere, could make Cuba the prohibitive favorites, further legitimizing the country's evolving place on the international stage.

For Cuban baseball, the desire for change is both real and growing. If the MLB can find a way to help bolster the Cuban League, there's no telling the kind of ancillary benefits that might result. Introduced to the sport by its northerly neighbor, and once home to an American minor-league team, Cuba?s baseball ties are as much about its history as its future. And while only time will tell what the true fate of the Cuban League will be, the current murmurings point to an intriguing discourse, one with the potential to improve not only the two nations? diplomatic relations, but the sport itself, as well.

[weams]

[weams]

[OFFNY]

Somewhat reminiscent of the Orioles' all-orange uniforms from the early 1970's:

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

And/or the Cleveland Indians' all-fire brick uniforms of the mid-to-late 1970's:

o

[DrungoHazewood]

I have many thoughts on this, but I'll just start with this: Cuba needs to be careful because MLB does not have the best record in dealing with independent leagues. It generally sees them as sources of talent to be mined. I think Japan would be happier if they could find a way to keep more stars at home and grow their domestic league. They've been losing a lot of talent to MLB, and I'm not sure that MLB cares.

I think it's to baseball's detriment that MLB is effectively the world's governing body for the sport.

[Stotle]

I have many thoughts on this, but I'll just start with this: Cuba needs to be careful because MLB does not have the best record in dealing with independent leagues. It generally sees them as sources of talent to be mined. I think Japan would be happier if they could find a way to keep more stars at home and grow their domestic league. They've been losing a lot of talent to MLB, and I'm not sure that MLB cares.

I think it's to baseball's detriment that MLB is effectively the world's governing body for the sport.

Does NPB really lose more talent to MLB than it receives from former MLB players? I have no idea but feel like the latter is more frequent (guys who don't get an MLB gig going over to play (well) for an NPB team).

[DrungoHazewood]

Does NPB really lose more talent to MLB than it receives from former MLB players? I have no idea but feel like the latter is more frequent (guys who don't get an MLB gig going over to play (well) for an NPB team).

I don't know exactly how the balance works out. But I would assume the high end talent is disproportionately flowing from NBP to the MLBs, while the AAAA guys go to Japan where they're often regulars or occasionally stars. You certainly don't see guys of Ichiro's or Uehara's or Nomo's or Matsui's talent going from the Majors overseas. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole of NBP thought of itself like a small-market team resigned to losing its big stars to the Yanks at free agency.

At least NPB can pay salaries that make it attractive to moderately big Japanese stars and the AAAA US players. The Cuban league isn't even set up on a capitalist model. The $1000 a month an A-ball player makes would seem like a goldmine. If their players are free to leave you'd assume anyone who's any good will go, almost no one will come back the other way, the the league will collapse.

[Stotle]

I don't know exactly how the balance works out. But I would assume the high end talent is disproportionately flowing from NBP to the MLBs, while the AAAA guys go to Japan where they're often regulars or occasionally stars. You certainly don't see guys of Ichiro's or Uehara's or Nomo's or Matsui's talent going from the Majors overseas. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole of NBP thought of itself like a small-market team resigned to losing its big stars to the Yanks at free agency.

At least NPB can pay salaries that make it attractive to moderately big Japanese stars and the AAAA US players. The Cuban league isn't even set up on a capitalist model. The $1000 a month an A-ball player makes would seem like a goldmine. If their players are free to leave you'd assume anyone who's any good will go, almost no one will come back the other way, the the league will collapse.

I don't see that many Japanese starts in the US, though. And with the exception of Darvish most are past their prime by the time they get to the US. Shrug. Maybe I'm underestimating the impact.

Re: Cuba, if the players can make a lot more money playing somewhere else, good for them says I.

[DrungoHazewood]

Re: Cuba, if the players can make a lot more money playing somewhere else, good for them says I.

Good for the players. Maybe good for MLB. Bad for the game of baseball.

I think it's a fundamental flaw of baseball to have only one league where top players can go, and it's a fundamental problem for the game if a country that produces a ton of talent can't have a successful domestic league of its own. Just my opinion, but baseball runs a huge risk of losing a big chunk of potential fanbase and future player pool if there simply is no local team to follow.

I think the best way to fix the issues with Caribbean baseball is to have an independent professional league or leagues there. MLB wouldn't even have to get involved with buscones or academies or anything. They just go scout the Dominican League or the Caribbean League, and the teams in those leagues developed or discovered the talent there because they want to win and make money. They'll sell players to the Majors, but only if they think it's in their best interest and they can make more selling the player than by selling tickets. But that has to be an organic thing, we (US/MLB) can't do anything. It can't be an affiliated league. It has to be like Japan or Mexico.

I can't even imagine soccer being nearly as big and popular as it is today if all the best players automatically ended up in the English system. Almost every single country has financially viable, independent domestic league(s).

[Stotle]

Good for the players. Maybe good for MLB. Bad for the game of baseball.

I think it's a fundamental flaw of baseball to have only one league where top players can go, and it's a fundamental problem for the game if a country that produces a ton of talent can't have a successful domestic league of its own. Just my opinion, but baseball runs a huge risk of losing a big chunk of potential fanbase and future player pool if there simply is no local team to follow.

I think the best way to fix the issues with Caribbean baseball is to have an independent professional league or leagues there. MLB wouldn't even have to get involved with buscones or academies or anything. They just go scout the Dominican League or the Caribbean League, and the teams in those leagues developed or discovered the talent there because they want to win and make money. They'll sell players to the Majors, but only if they think it's in their best interest and they can make more selling the player than by selling tickets. But that has to be an organic thing, we (US/MLB) can't do anything. It can't be an affiliated league. It has to be like Japan or Mexico.

I can't even imagine soccer being nearly as big and popular as it is today if all the best players automatically ended up in the English system. Almost every single country has financially viable, independent domestic league(s).

I don't share your gloomy outlook as to the future of baseball in the caribbean, and certainly not in Cuba. I don't like the system running via shady under-the-table agreements with 14 year olds, clandestine workouts in the US against MLB rules, etc. But those are issues that can be fixed through other measures. Expecting poor countries to finance their own professional leagues with salaries to keep players from wanting to come to MLB seems like a stretch.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't share your gloomy outlook as to the future of baseball in the caribbean, and certainly not in Cuba. I don't like the system running via shady under-the-table agreements with 14 year olds, clandestine workouts in the US against MLB rules, etc. But those are issues that can be fixed through other measures. Expecting poor countries to finance their own professional leagues with salaries to keep players from wanting to come to MLB seems like a stretch.

That would be a huge stretch. But each country or maybe region with a domestic league that is the first stopping point for good local talent, and a long-term base for local mid-range talent? A league that finds the good local kids and starts them off in pro ball, eventually selling the good ones to higher leagues? I think that's very possible, and preferable to all the good players over the age of 16 going off to play in the GCL and the Midwest League 1000s of miles away. And it grows not only the player pool but the local interest in the game.

[Stotle]

That would be a huge stretch. But each country or maybe region with a domestic league that is the first stopping point for good local talent, and a long-term base for local mid-range talent? A league that finds the good local kids and starts them off in pro ball, eventually selling the good ones to higher leagues? I think that's very possible, and preferable to all the good players over the age of 16 going off to play in the GCL and the Midwest League 1000s of miles away. And it grows not only the player pool but the local interest in the game.

But you need a fanbase able/willing to support all of the overhead and then enough extra money to make it worthwhile for the folks tasked with putting this league together, finding/training kids, running the clubs, taking care of the stadiums, etc. I just don't get the sense there is that level of disposable income in most of those countries. As it is they have some localized leagues and the caribbean series each winter is a huge deal. But it's a huge undertaking in a sport like baseball to create an infrastructure for developing teenage to early-20s talent.

It might be preferable. Maybe if you get enough former MLBers to invest in it you can put something together. I just don't think it's feasible when all is said and done, though. Agree with your general thoughts about it being good overall for the game in a global sense.

[weams]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">ICYMI: <a href="https://twitter.com/BenBadler">@BenBadler</a> looked at Cuban players off the island who don’t fall under bonus pools. <a href="https://t.co/oFHygrvwHF">https://t.co/oFHygrvwHF</a> <a href="https://t.co/VLrxSkNYuK">pic.twitter.com/VLrxSkNYuK</a></p>— Baseball America (@BaseballAmerica) <a href="

">January 30, 2016</a></blockquote>

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[DrungoHazewood]

But you need a fanbase able/willing to support all of the overhead and then enough extra money to make it worthwhile for the folks tasked with putting this league together, finding/training kids, running the clubs, taking care of the stadiums, etc. I just don't get the sense there is that level of disposable income in most of those countries. As it is they have some localized leagues and the caribbean series each winter is a huge deal. But it's a huge undertaking in a sport like baseball to create an infrastructure for developing teenage to early-20s talent.

It might be preferable. Maybe if you get enough former MLBers to invest in it you can put something together. I just don't think it's feasible when all is said and done, though. Agree with your general thoughts about it being good overall for the game in a global sense.

I have only the vaguest ideas of how a business case analysis would work for leagues in the Caribbean. But I do know that winter leagues there seem very popular, although I'm sure some of that is returning MLBers. And in the States I have no idea how something like the Pecos League doesn't go bankrupt a month into the season, they play in small towns with some ballparks that appear to be in community sports parks, but it's been around a number of years. I have to think that could work in Puerto Rico or the DR or wherever.

[Stotle]

I have only the vaguest ideas of how a business case analysis would work for leagues in the Caribbean. But I do know that winter leagues there seem very popular, although I'm sure some of that is returning MLBers. And in the States I have no idea how something like the Pecos League doesn't go bankrupt a month into the season, they play in small towns with some ballparks that appear to be in community sports parks, but it's been around a number of years. I have to think that could work in Puerto Rico or the DR or wherever.

But you don't need to prevent kids from going to make money in the US in order to run those leagues. You were talking about leagues that would incentivize players from leaving to go make money elsewhere. That would take more than exciting competition on community fields.