The Challenge Rule, and "Reviews"

[OFFNY]

o

Unlike football, managers are never really out of challenges in baseball, even if they officially are.

This is because managers are allowed to ask umpires to "review" a questionable call after they have lost their challenge. And in the 1-plus years that I have been watching baseball with challenges under the current system, I have NEVER seen an umpire deny a manager when he requests a "review" of a call ...... although I finally saw it for the first time when we played the Blue Jays, but I'm giving that a mulligan, and I'll tell you why ......

Blue Jays manager John Gibbons was out of challenges, and he asked for a review. He got it. LATER THAT SAME INNING, he came out and asked for another review. The umpires promptly told the Orioles to stay on the field. They were about to give Gibbons a second review IN THE SAME INNING !!! Only when they realized how egregious this was in regard to managers being out of challenges did they finally tell the Orioles that they could leave the field without them reviewing the call.

So ...... technically, did I FINALLY see a manager denied a "review" when he was out of challenges ??? Yes, technically, they I did finally see it ...... but only because it was the manager's 2nd "review" request of the inning, and only after they initially told the opposing team (the Orioles) to stay on the field until they finally thought better of it.

So in my rat's ass of an opinion, managers essentially are never really out of challenges ...... so there really is not much risk of asking for one, even very early in the game, because you can always get another one by asking for a review.

[NashLumber]

Very, very frustrating. It's almost as if the umps are not keeping up with the challenges requested. Shouldn't someone be keeping up with it whether on the field or in NY?

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[DrungoHazewood]

Never liked the challenge system, why do you have to stall to have your reply guy check it out so the League's replay guy can officially re-check it out? Just have a guy in the booth tell the umps when it looks like something was missed and fix it.

[OFFNY]

o

Unlike football, managers are never really out of challenges in baseball, even if they officially are.

This is because managers are allowed to ask umpires to "review" a questionable call after they have lost their challenge. And in the 1-plus years that I have been watching baseball with challenges under the current system, I have NEVER seen an umpire deny a manager when he requests a "review" of a call ...... although I finally saw it for the first time when we played the Blue Jays, but I'm giving that a mulligan, and I'll tell you why ......

Blue Jays manager John Gibbons was out of challenges, and he asked for a review. He got it. LATER THAT SAME INNING, he came out and asked for another review. The umpires promptly told the Orioles to stay on the field. They were about to give Gibbons a second review IN THE SAME INNING !!! Only when they realized how egregious this was in regard to managers being out of challenges did they finally tell the Orioles that they could leave the field without them reviewing the call.

So ...... technically, did I FINALLY see a manager denied a "review" when he was out of challenges ??? Yes, technically, they I did finally see it ...... but only because it was the manager's 2nd "review" request of the inning, and only after they initially told the opposing team (the Orioles) to stay on the field until they finally thought better of it.

So in my rat's ass of an opinion, managers essentially are never really out of challenges ...... so there really is not much risk of asking for one, even very early in the game, because you can always get another one by asking for a review.

Also, this is not just a complaint because of the fact that I cited the Blue Jays for doing this when playing against the Orioles.

I see this as a universal problem, not as a particular slight against the Orioles.

When Showalter and the Orioles ask for a "review" and they get it, it is just as wrong as when any other manager/team is granted it.

[sportsfan8703]

Teams are going to abuse this until they make it a "point of emphasis". Gibbons used "his" challenge with no outs in the BOT 1st. The Jays got all the calls last series and still lost. That was horrible umpiring.

[osfan83]

You know, my first thought about replay was "good, all that matters is getting the call right". Now I think I would like to live in a world without replay. I can't get excited when a catcher throws out a stealing base runner because I'm not sure he is really out. So I wait 2 minutes, and by then the excitement is over.

[DrungoHazewood]

You know, my first thought about replay was "good, all that matters is getting the call right". Now I think I would like to live in a world without replay. I can't get excited when a catcher throws out a stealing base runner because I'm not sure he is really out. So I wait 2 minutes, and by then the excitement is over.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and I don't see how you have a world where a million people watching on TV and the press box, and the luxury boxes and the folks waiting to get a hot dog all know the call was wrong 10 seconds after it was made.

[ledzepp8]

The challenge system is stupid. It always has been. They give them a challenge limit but then it's not really a limit. They aren't penalized for getting a challenge wrong. And the umps pretty much review everything that's requested, with or without challenges being available.

So what is the point?

[Frobby]

The challenge system is stupid. It always has been. They give them a challenge limit but then it's not really a limit. They aren't penalized for getting a challenge wrong. And the umps pretty much review everything that's requested, with or without challenges being available.

So what is the point?

The point is, they don't have to review it if they really don't feel it was that close. In a certain way, I'm impressed that the umps are comfortable getting a review when the manager doesn't have a challenge. It shows they want to get the calls right.

[ledzepp8]

The point is, they don't have to review it if they really don't feel it was that close. In a certain way, I'm impressed that the umps are comfortable getting a review when the manager doesn't have a challenge. It shows they want to get the calls right.

I understand the reasoning but it's not implemented. When do they ever not review a call, when challenges have been exhausted?

They seemingly always do.

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[OFFNY]

The point is, they don't have to review it if they really don't feel it was that close. In a certain way, I'm impressed that the umps are comfortable getting a review when the manager doesn't have a challenge. It shows they want to get the calls right.

I would be more impressed if the umpires felt more comfortable being assertive, and telling the manager(s) that they have used their challenge and lost it. And it seems to me that they aren't very comfortable doing that, being that I almost never see them do it.

Otherwise, I see very little point in having a challenge limit in the first place.

What I WOULD be in favor of would be unlimited challenges, as long as the manager is correct. So if he uses a challenge and wins it, then he should be able to keep the challenge indefinitely until he is wrong.

If the umpires are having a bad game, and the manager is on top of things and making correct challenges, then I see no reason for the manager and his team to be penalized by limiting their challenges ...... as long as they are correct.

[Frobby]

Seems like a good place for me to post a link to Baseball Savant's instant replay database. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/replay?challenge_type=&year=2015&challenger=teamchallenging&team= Here are a few salient facts:

- Umpire calls have been overturned about 45% of the time they have been challenged in 2016; last year it was 49%.

- Last year, the Blue Jays challenged 52 calls (3rd most in MLB), and 22 (42%) were overturned. This year they have challenged 10 (2nd most in MLB) and 4 were overturned.

- Last year, the Orioles challenged 30 calls (4th fewest in MLB), and 17 (57%) were overturned. This year they have challenged 3 (3rd fewest in MLB) and 2 were overturned.

Other AL East teams:

Yankees: 32 challenges in 2015, 75% successful; 3 in 2016, 33% successful.

Rays: 53 challenges in 2015, 32% successful; 7 in 2016, 57% successful.

Red Sox: 52 challenges in 2015, 40% successful; 9 in 2016, 33% successful.

Also, last year the Orioles' opponents challenged umpires calls 44 times with a 38% success rate; this year they've made 6 challenges with a 17% success rate.

Bottom line: Buck is very conservative when it comes to challenging umpires' calls. He could probably get a couple more calls to go his way if he was more aggressive about it, but perhaps he curries a bit of favor with the umpires by only challenging calls that are highly questionable.

[ExileAngelos]

You know, my first thought about replay was "good, all that matters is getting the call right". Now I think I would like to live in a world without replay. I can't get excited when a catcher throws out a stealing base runner because I'm not sure he is really out. So I wait 2 minutes, and by then the excitement is over.

You and I are on the same page here. One of the many things why baseball is better than the other sports is because what you see and cheer for isn't subject to change. It's not worth it in the end if you ask me.

[OFFNY]

Seems like a good place for me to post a link to Baseball Savant's instant replay database. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/replay?challenge_type=&year=2015&challenger=teamchallenging&team= Here are a few salient facts:

- Umpire calls have been overturned about 45% of the time they have been challenged in 2016; last year it was 49%.

- Last year, the Blue Jays challenged 52 calls (3rd most in MLB), and 22 (42%) were overturned. This year they have challenged 10 (2nd most in MLB) and 4 were overturned.

- Last year, the Orioles challenged 30 calls (4th fewest in MLB), and 17 (57%) were overturned. This year they have challenged 3 (3rd fewest in MLB) and 2 were overturned.

Other AL East teams:

Yankees: 32 challenges in 2015, 75% successful; 3 in 2016, 33% successful.

Rays: 53 challenges in 2015, 32% successful; 7 in 2016, 57% successful.

Red Sox: 52 challenges in 2015, 40% successful; 9 in 2016, 33% successful.

Also, last year the Orioles' opponents challenged umpires calls 44 times with a 38% success rate; this year they've made 6 challenges with a 17% success rate.

Bottom line: Buck is very conservative when it comes to challenging umpires' calls.

He could probably get a couple more calls to go his way if he was more aggressive about it, but perhaps he curries a bit of favor with the umpires by only challenging calls that are highly questionable.

That's an excellent point, and it reminds me of a game in 2012 in which Matt Wieters was ejected.

Wieters was frustrated that the Orioles were losing AND that there had been several questionable calls, so he piped up and got the thumb from the home plate umpire. When Showalter came out defend Matt, he specifically told the umpire that Wieters "almost never complains, and that goes a long way in my book." He was essentially saying about Wieters what you are suggesting may be true about Showalter.

The umpires are human, and if they perceive Showalter as "one of the good guys", then they may lean slightly in his favor, whether it be consciously or subconsciously.

When I was a player-coach in a basketball league years back, I was pushed into action when one of my players got hurt during a game. I was fouled when I drove to the basket, but the refs missed it. As a result, I made an egregious double-dribble to avoid falling on my face ...... and the refs DID see that, but they did not call it. The next day the ref came up to me, smiled, and said, "Pat, that was a miserable double-dribble that you had yesterday. But every once in a while, I like to give one to the good guys."

Almost every other player-coach in the league was a chronic malcontent, and so I knew exactly what he was saying to me.

[survivedc]

Seems like a good place for me to post a link to Baseball Savant's instant replay database. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/replay?challenge_type=&year=2015&challenger=teamchallenging&team= Here are a few salient facts:

- Umpire calls have been overturned about 45% of the time they have been challenged in 2016; last year it was 49%.

- Last year, the Blue Jays challenged 52 calls (3rd most in MLB), and 22 (42%) were overturned. This year they have challenged 10 (2nd most in MLB) and 4 were overturned.

- Last year, the Orioles challenged 30 calls (4th fewest in MLB), and 17 (57%) were overturned. This year they have challenged 3 (3rd fewest in MLB) and 2 were overturned.

Other AL East teams:

Yankees: 32 challenges in 2015, 75% successful; 3 in 2016, 33% successful.

Rays: 53 challenges in 2015, 32% successful; 7 in 2016, 57% successful.

Red Sox: 52 challenges in 2015, 40% successful; 9 in 2016, 33% successful.

Also, last year the Orioles' opponents challenged umpires calls 44 times with a 38% success rate; this year they've made 6 challenges with a 17% success rate.

Bottom line: Buck is very conservative when it comes to challenging umpires' calls. He could probably get a couple more calls to go his way if he was more aggressive about it, but perhaps he curries a bit of favor with the umpires by only challenging calls that are highly questionable.

Wow the Yankees with 75% accuracy?! I'm not sure if that's impressive or disheartening.