Joseph vs Wieters

[wildcard]

Both Rob Long and Steve Davis on 1057 The Fan brought up the following facts.

1. Wieters goes out with an injured toe.

2. Joseph catches a bunch of games in a row.

3. The O's pitchers pitch better.

Is there anything to the thought that Joseph called or catches a better game than Wieters?

What say you?

Check out the interviews with Brit and Backett

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2016/07/25/brittany-ghiroli-on-a-great-weekend-for-the-orioles-and-possible-trade-scenarios/

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2016/07/25/phil-backert-discusses-ups-and-downs-of-the-orioles/

[Redskins Rick]

Both Rob Long and Steve Davis on 1057 The Fan brought up the following facts.

1. Wieters goes out with an injured toe.

2. Joseph catches a bunch of games in a row.

3. The O's pitchers pitch better.

Is there anything to the thought that Joseph called or catches a better game than Wieters?

What say you?

Only Bundy's 2nd start.

Gausman has pitched relatively well all season, usually no run support.

Only Worely's 2nd start.

Tillman has pitched extremely well all season.

So I really dont think there is that much into this.

[TheEldestTorres]

That's certainly not the sole factor, but I think it's not an insignificant detail. I've been saying for a while that Joseph is a noticeably better defensive catcher. Yes, he is underachieving offensively, but like the Depot wrote recently (http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2016/07/an-alternative-starting-pitching.html) it could be a sacrifice that is well worth our while. Not sure I can see Buck going for it, though...

[FlipTheBird]

That's certainly not the sole factor, but I think it's not an insignificant detail. I've been saying for a while that Joseph is a noticeably better defensive catcher. Yes, he is underachieving offensively, but like the Depot wrote recently (http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2016/07/an-alternative-starting-pitching.html) it could be a sacrifice that is well worth our while. Not sure I can see Buck going for it, though...

Being "better defensively" doesn't really matter much to the pitchers. What's important is if he's calling a better game... and I think Buck and the coaching staff are really the only folks that have the data to show that. So I think it's a difficult topic to discuss.

[sportsfan8703]

I think it's just a coincidence. Buck loves MW. He's grooming him to be a manager. Plus we took the risk and gave him the Q.O.

Plus during Bundy start Hunter mentioned that Dave Wallace reminded the pitchers that the catchers signs are just suggestions and ultimately that it's their decision what to throw. Bundy was routinely shaking Joseph off.

Only conclusion you could draw is that maybe the staff is more comfortable shaking off CJ than they are MW. Especially the younger guys like KG and Bundy.

[Phantom]

Only Bundy's 2nd start.

Gausman has pitched relatively well all season, usually no run support.

Only Worely's 2nd start.

Tillman has pitched extremely well all season.

So I really dont think there is that much into this.

This is all that needs to be said about this. Small, inaccurate samples lead to garbage conclusions.

[Can_of_corn]

Only Bundy's 2nd start.

Gausman has pitched relatively well all season, usually no run support.

Only Worely's 2nd start.

Tillman has pitched extremely well all season.

So I really dont think there is that much into this.

Wasn't Caleb catching when Bundy gave up 5 ER in his first start?

You know the start where everyone was complaining about all the fastballs Bundy was throwing.

[bpilktree]

I think a lot of it is just coincedence but I have watched the pitchers shake off more with Joseph. I think sometimes when you have a vetern catcher any young pitcher is more inclined to just go with his call and not shake off. I think that may lead to not really agreeing with the pitch and then having a little hesitation in throwing it. Joseph doesn't have as much reputation and Gausman has shaken him off more. I also think it helps that the guys in the rotation now are guys now that know how to pitch. Worley has a plan going out there and stays with it and can make adjustments if something it not working the same with Yvonni. Wilson and Wright don't have that experience and haven't learned how to pitch at this level yet without their best stuff. A young guy can pitch well when he has his stuff going but when things are off any they have trouble adjusting during the game.

[Redskins Rick]

I think a lot of it is just coincedence but I have watched the pitchers shake off more with Joseph. I think sometimes when you have a vetern catcher any young pitcher is more inclined to just go with his call and not shake off. I think that may lead to not really agreeing with the pitch and then having a little hesitation in throwing it. Joseph doesn't have as much reputation and Gausman has shaken him off more. I also think it helps that the guys in the rotation now are guys now that know how to pitch. Worley has a plan going out there and stays with it and can make adjustments if something it not working the same with Yvonni. Wilson and Wright don't have that experience and haven't learned how to pitch at this level yet without their best stuff. A young guy can pitch well when he has his stuff going but when things are off any they have trouble adjusting during the game.

You do know that Caleb caught Gausman last two years, and I am sure in the minors too.

[Redskins Rick]

Wasn't Caleb catching when Bundy gave up 5 ER in his first start?

You know the start where everyone was complaining about all the fastballs Bundy was throwing.

Good point, I suspect Bundy had a whole bunch of butterflies in his system that start.

[birrman54]

Being "better defensively" doesn't really matter much to the pitchers. What's important is if he's calling a better game... and I think Buck and the coaching staff are really the only folks that have the data to show that. So I think it's a difficult topic to discuss.

That link compared Joseph and Wieter's framing effects - how many borderline strike calls do they get. Joseph is better than average whereas Wieters is below average. The difference only comes out to around 4 strikes per game, so I'm not certain how powerful the effect is.

[Can_of_corn]

That link compared Joseph and Wieter's framing effects - how many borderline strike calls do they get. Joseph is better than average whereas Wieters is below average. The difference only comes out to around 4 strikes per game, so I'm not certain how powerful the effect is.

While I certainly agree that framing is a thing and has an effect I am not sold on current attempts to quantify it.

I think that if framing had the impact some folks suggest that it would significantly impact catcher salaries.

[DrungoHazewood]

Human brains like patterns, and really like inferring cause-and-effect from patterns when there is none.

Haven't the pitchers also been doing much better with Borbon playing behind them?

[DrungoHazewood]

While I certainly agree that framing is a thing and has an effect I am not sold on current attempts to quantify it.

I think that if framing had the impact some folks suggest that it would significantly impact catcher salaries.

The huge deal is quantifying, and how the framing discussion is framed. When the initial article from BP starts the whole thing rolling with "one of the Molina brothers is OPSing .550 but is an MVP candidate because framing" you strain credibility.

That said, I'm sure there is an impact. And that makes me want robot umps even more.

[El Gordo]

That's certainly not the sole factor, but I think it's not an insignificant detail. I've been saying for a while that Joseph is a noticeably better defensive catcher. Yes, he is underachieving offensively, but like the Depot wrote recently (http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2016/07/an-alternative-starting-pitching.html) it could be a sacrifice that is well worth our while. Not sure I can see Buck going for it, though...

Wieters is better at blocking pitches catching foul tips tagging out runners and curtailing the running game. In what ways is Caleb better? We have no idea how well either calls a Game, but the coaching staff does.