Poor Decision Making

[DrungoHazewood]

That is extremely unfair to such a great sinker ball pitch.

To be fair there are orders of magnitude more strikeout pitchers than sinkerballers on any decent list of the best pitchers of all time. Who's the greatest sinkerballer of all time? Kevin Brown?

[Frobby]

To be fair there are orders of magnitude more strikeout pitchers than sinkerballers on any decent list of the best pitchers of all time. Who's the greatest sinkerballer of all time? Kevin Brown?

How do you define them? As I look at pitchers with a GB% higher than 50%, I see the following candidates:

Greg Maddux, 51.5% GB%, 6.06 K/9, 355 wins

Kevin Brown, 53.7% GB%, 6.63 K/9, 211 wins

Roy Halladay, 54.1 GB%, 6.93 K/9, 203 wins

Tim Hudson, 58.0 GB%, 5.99 K/9, 222 wins

I don't really think of Hudson or Maddux as sinkerballers, but I do think of Halladay that way.

[weams]

To be fair there are orders of magnitude more strikeout pitchers than sinkerballers on any decent list of the best pitchers of all time. Who's the greatest sinkerballer of all time? Kevin Brown?

Kevin had to roid to do that.

[weams]

Nelson Cruz' 2014, had it been a rookie season, would have been something like the 87th-best rookie season of all time (non-pitcher category).

But it would have been 3rd-best in Oriole history behind Grich and Ripken. Trout holds the rWAR record for rookies, by 1.6 wins over 2nd place Joe Jackson.

I do not expect Trey to play defense. So I think you can only look at the offensive component. Maybe third behind Trout and McGwire then.

[DrungoHazewood]

How do you define them? As I look at pitchers with a GB% higher than 50%, I see the following candidates:

Greg Maddux, 51.5% GB%, 6.06 K/9, 355 winsKevin Brown, 53.7% GB%, 6.63 K/9, 211 winsRoy Halladay, 54.1 GB%, 6.93 K/9, 203 winsTim Hudson, 58.0 GB%, 5.99 K/9, 222 wins

I don't really think of Hudson or Maddux as sinkerballers, but I do think of Halladay that way.

I'd look at it the other way. Top 20 in rWAR (so it's not inherently K-biased) from 1900-2010 among HOFers, and number of strikeout titles:

Johnson, 12

Alexander, 6

Grove, 7

Seaver, 5

Maddux, 0

Johnson, 9

Blyleven, 1

Mathewson, 5

Perry, 0

Spahn, 4

Plank, 0

Pedro, 3

Carlton, 5

Ryan, 11

Roberts, 2

Jenkins, 1

Gibson, 1

Glavine, 0

Young, 2

All but a handful of the best pitchers of the last century+ led the whole league in strikeouts, usually multiple times. And basically every one of them was above-average in strikeouts.

The problem with measuring GB% is there's no data from 1871 through 1990-something. But also, the further you go back in time the less emphasis on GB%. If it's 1914 and the league fielding percentage is .958 (teams averaged close to 250 errors/year) and half of every lineup is 5' 7" guys with 22 extra base hits on the year and it's 465 to LC, well, you want those guys to hit a flyball every at bat. I'm willing to bet it's only been the last 20-30 years that anyone ever said something like "you have to be a GB pitcher to succeed at a place like Oriole Park."

[DrungoHazewood]

I do not expect Trey to play defense. So I think you can only look at the offensive component. Maybe third behind Trout and McGwire then.

Cruz was +30 batting runs. There have been 54 rookies reach that mark, led by Joe Jackson's +70. In 2014 Jose Abreu was +51 as a rookie.

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[weams]

Cruz was +30 batting runs. There have been 54 rookies reach that mark, led by Joe Jackson's +70. In 2014 Jose Abreu was +51 as a rookie.

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I guess leading the league in homers is not all I crack it up to be then.

[DrungoHazewood]

I guess leading the league in homers is not all I crack it up to be then.

He was a positive contributor, clearly. But out of 146 batting title qualifiers he was 46th in OPS+. And OPS overstates the impact of power.

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